Dating In The West; A Response To Wanderlust And Billy Bunter
I read the submissions of Wanderlust and Billy Bunter with a lot of interest. They make many valid points, but the more I thought about them the more I felt they must live in a different world than I do. I have been married four times; twice to “regular” American women, once to a Latin American immigrant that had lived in the US for 25 years before we married, and have been married for the past two years to a Filipina that I met and dated in the Philippines. The first marriage was a disaster, and the divorce was a fiscal rape. The second marriage was great, but ended when my wife died very young, leaving me with four children at home; the youngest was 3. The third marriage was entered into in absolute disgust with the post 40 years old dating scene in the US, and was doomed from the start. She was a deeply damaged person; for which I blame her mother who was a harsh, unloving, bitter, psycho bitch if there ever was one. The current marriage has all the signs of success that I recognize from my second marriage. A lot of the success can be laid at the feet of my wife’s mother. She is a wonderful woman, who raised a loving daughter, and who gives good advice and counsel. It is an old adage, but still as true as ever; if you want a good wife, take a long hard look at her mother, because that is what she will become. I state all of this only to establish my credentials on the subject at hand. Not every man finding a wife in Asia is a “loser” that can not find a woman in his own culture, which seems to be the underlying premise of both these authors. There are many good and valid reasons for men to give up on western women, other than being just too lazy to put in the effort. The focus seems to be, “If you put in the effort you can get laid by a western woman.” I reply, “Why would you want to?”
It is hard to decide where to start in describing what dating has become in the US. It is OK at a young age, but as the years go by, the selection becomes very skewed towards damaged goods, and the vitriol you can expect as a man becomes too harsh to adequately describe. There are many beautiful and truly nice women in the west (USA), but they married early, and stayed married. Their husbands know they have a gem, and hold on to them. So what we are left with after about age 30 are the bitter and nasty survivors of the gender wars. And it is a war. For those who have not lived and worked in the USA in the past 10 to 20 years it is impossible to transmit how hostile the work place, and society as a whole, has become to men. I will try to focus this on only the dating scene, but the overall social upheaval has impacted dating by giving women the belief that they not only can have everything, but that it is there absolute right to have everything. And, if they don’t have everything, then it is some man’s fault.
I cringe every time I watch this one cosmetics advertisement that has the tag line of; “Because we are worth it.” It summarizes the whole attitude of women in the US; we deserve everything because we are worth it. They do not have to act any particular way, perform any socially useful function, achieve any goal, or do anything at all to be “worth it”; just being a woman is enough. To accept less than everything is admitting that you are not worth it, and therefore less of a woman than some other that is getting something you are not. An example of this attitude by women is a woman that wrote a book recently that suggested perhaps women have got too demanding, and should stop looking for Mr. Right, and look for Mr. Good Enough instead. She wrote this from the perspective of being a never married woman in her 40’s, who had a child by in-vitro fertilization while she was in her 30’s, and has raised it on her own. On reflection, she has decided that there may have been many men that would have made her life a lot better, but who she rejected because they weren’t everything she was looking for. She suggested that maybe someone that meets 80% of what you want might be a good choice for a life partner. She described in a recent interview the large amount of hate mail she has received from women. The gist of the mail is that these women feel that any man that meets less than 100% of their desires is a “loser”; and settling for a loser is unacceptable. She added that the mail she gets from men state that any woman they found that met 80% of what they were looking for would be considered a catch. The probability of you being judged a loser by these women, in the 20 seconds as you approach them, is nearly 100%, unless you are Tiger Woods or George Clooney. And do not fool yourself that you can make up for surface imperfections (boy do I have those) with intelligence, wit, or charm, because western women are deciding if you are a loser before you even open your mouth. If she does not judge you a loser out of hand, she can always change her mind and label you a loser after you open your mouth too. And what is it that puts them in a position to judge? They have a vagina. They treat this most common of commodities as if it were diamonds. And they are like diamonds in that they are actually not rare, and only valuable because the supply is artificially limited (by DeBeers for diamonds, and by the sisterhood for vaginas).
I have 6 sisters. I have had the opportunity to observe their friends over many years. Most of them were fairly attractive and relatively nice people, when they were young. As they have grown older, and have used and discarded a number of men, they have become totally unpleasant, and I want nothing to do with them. One of their number, now in her 50’s like me, recently told me that she was mildly interested in finding a man, but would accept nothing less than her ideal. He had to have all his hair, lots of money, no kids at home, an athletic build (i.e. thin), and be willing to cater to all her needs, including supporting her completely so she could stop working. This is from a grey haired, wrinkled, fat, obnoxious bitch. Western women’s expectations, and estimations of their own worth, are totally delusional.
OK, we men have always had to deal with rejection. Dating, and approaching women, has always been a numbers game, and we should have thick skins. But what has changed over my lifetime is the viciousness with which US women deal out this rejection. The anger and potential for violence, just for the affront of approaching a woman and asking her to dance, is quite astounding. It usually comes with the attitude of, “How dare you insult me by suggesting that you are in any way worthy of me.” And they do feel insulted if you are too much older than them, or not as well dressed, or not as attractive as they feel they are. I had the most trouble with the age thing. If you are a variable number of years older than a woman (how many years depends solely on the woman’s opinion; which you can never know in advance), and approach her, you are asking for a violent confrontation. I am a terrible judge of women’s ages. My mother taught me that a woman’s age was no man’s business, and to ignore it. Nowadays, you do so at your peril. An insulting comment is to be expected, with a slap on the face, or a loud verbal assault, a strong possibility. Following her slapping you, you can expect to be thrown out of the place for offending a woman. If you are lucky, the police will not be called to throw you in jail.
So you say, maybe you should lower your aim and approach women that are older, less attractive, and more overweight. After all, you are looking to get laid, and they may be a higher probability target. However, you have to deal with two things; the loser label and social proofing. No woman, no matter how old, fat, and ugly wants to be seen to accept a loser. And, if you are approaching a fat ugly woman, she knows you are a loser, or you would not be approaching her. (I am not kidding with this one, no matter how hard it may be for men to accept that it is the way women think.) So you are in a no win situation. You might as well get shot down in flames by a beautiful woman as by a bar hog. In fact your standing with other women will be higher if you are rejected by a beauty than if you are accepted by a female loser. This takes us to social proofing. Women are constantly checking their feelings and opinions with other women. (Men do not feel the need to validate their opinions or feelings. However, if I went insane once a month I might feel the need to validate my feelings too.) Women do not trust their own ability to decide if a man is attractive. They would rather trust another (high status) woman’s judgment, and thus are only interested in a man that is already with a beautiful woman; hence, the feast or famine phenomenon.
How does all of this relate to dating women in Asia? It is because in Asia, I believe, that women are still willing to admit that they want a man. In the west, girls grow up with Gloria Steinem’s immortal words, “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.” Once, in the US, women would indicate interest, and a man could safely approach them. No guarantee that they would like you after you approached them, but only a fool would approach a woman that had not indicated some interest. These days any woman indicating any interest in a man, or men at all, would immediately lose status with other women. And this form of face is the most important thing in a woman’s world; in the west as much as in Asia. What men think is of absolutely no importance to women. Accept this, and get over yourself. As a result of US women dropping their part of the game, we men in the US have no choice but to make nothing but cold calls. This does not make for an entertaining evening out at a social gathering place.
How is this different in Asia? Once upon a time (this starts like all fairy tales) I went to the Philippines on a dive trip (of course I did not avoid the ladies), and was amazed to find that I was being given the eye by women. I am not referring to the professional women looking for a customer, but regular women on the sidewalks, in malls, in restaurants, and just in general. And some of these women were quite young, and many were very attractive. The young ones would generally notice my notice of them, look me up and down, catch my eye, smile, and indicate they were not interested, but at least I was in the game. If you are a man in the US, and over 30, to most women, and to all women under 30, you are a walking ghost. You just do not exist in their world; unless they need something from you at the moment. I am amazed on a daily basis that they manage to avoid colliding with us older men on the sidewalks, since we are apparently invisible. In Asia it seems that women are still willing to do their share in the game. If they aren’t interested they can indicate that while retaining everyone’s face, and a good deal of humor. Everyone can have a good time, even if they don’t get laid. If they are interested, you know it, and can choose to pursue the opportunity or not. (I had not noticed this effect as much in the LOS as I did in the PI, so that may be why I shifted my flag to the Philippines, and eventually married a Filipina.) Also, Asian women tend to take you looking at them with admiration as a compliment, and not as an insult, as it is in the US. The usual attitude in the US is “how dare you look at me”; while she is wearing nothing but a tube top, leggings, various tattoos, and stripper high heels. In the US the PC crowd says homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, while a 40+ year old man finding a 20 to 30 year old woman attractive is a pervert.
Many of you will say that the Asian woman is just looking to get a meal ticket, and the girlfriend effect is just an illusion. Let me tell you brother, it is all an illusion everywhere. A few years ago, before I remarried, I was out with my baby sister (mid 40’s and divorced for the second time, but who am I to cast stones) and one of her friends at a restaurant, prior to going to a dance club. The friend was about 35 and recently divorced. Since I was outside her target age range, I did not exist, and was thoroughly ignored. This can be a great opportunity to obtain insights into the enemy’s tactics. This woman was angry at men, hated them, and was so bitter I feared for the safety of my manhood when she picked up a knife to cut her food (she resembled Lorena Bobbit a little too much). I am not exaggerating. Then two guys that fit her target profile sat down at the next table. It was like she threw a switch. Suddenly it was all smiles and sweetness. She flirted with these guys until we had to leave, and then the mask came off again. About a year later, at my sister’s birthday party, I ran into her again. Now she had her fiancé with her. He was already deep in the walk-one-step-behind-me-take-my-coat-get-me-a-drink-and-watch-my-purse mode. He was an obedient slave. She had not changed her attitude; she just had put up an illusion to trap her next intended victim, who she would then suck the life out of and discard. She would extract her vengeance one man at a time. And the amusing part is she will do all this and convince herself that she is the victim of yet another no good man.
So, are us western guys, of any age, losers because they choose to “give up” on western women? Are we just too lazy, or have we been made too lazy by exposure to easy sex in SEA? I posit the answer is no to all of the above. Western women (based on US women) have decided they neither need us nor want us. They are willing to tolerate us, as long as we amuse them, then they will strip us of all we have, half of what we will earn in the future, take our children from us, and then go on to the next guy. They have become, in great measure, parasites. And the mainstream popular culture praises them for this behavior. A well known advice columnist always advises her female advisees, “Decide if you would be better off with him or without him, and if you are better off without him, dump him.” This might be fine if you each took your own stuff and went your separate ways. But the reality is the woman is better off only because she can take everything the guy has, and get all the future support from him she needs, while dumping him. They do this and think they are being strong INDEPENDENT women. And all her friends will say, “You go girl. You have to do what is best for you.” And do not think that avoiding marriage will save you. The lines between marriage and a man’s commitment to a woman have blurred a lot; you don’t have to put a ring on her finger to take a royal f**king by the courts. (Notice that women never have any legal commitments to any man, even their husbands, and are not held accountable by the courts for anything.) Why do we submit ourselves to this abuse?
Wanderlust makes the point that it is probably easier to get into the western woman’s pants than a “good” Asian woman’s; if you are willing to jump through the western woman’s hoops first. And that our perceptions of how hard it is to get in western women’s pants compared to the girls we meet in Thailand is skewed by our meeting only the P4P segment of Thai society. I agree with all of that wholeheartedly. It came as somewhat of a shock to me when I found that any dates with my 25 year old Filipina girlfriend would be strictly chaperoned at all times. She had warned me the first time we spoke that she would be a virgin on her wedding night. But, I ended up, after much patience, and investment of effort, with a woman that looks at marriage as for the rest of her life; divorce is against the law in the Philippines. And I got a wife that thinks she actually owes some responsibility to take care of her husband’s needs, not just her own. With a western woman you will get laid when she wants, how she wants, and for as long as she wants. Your wants or needs do not matter, and never will. So I reiterate the question, “Why would you want to go through the trouble of getting laid by a western woman when, in the long run, you are just going to get screwed?” Just say NO.
The picture you paint of life Stateside makes it sound downright miserable. I would suggest that while things ay not be good in other Western countries, neither do I think it is quite as bad elsewhere as it is in the States. A lot of my American friends here in Bangkok describe things in the States much as you do. Downright grim.
There is one very interesting point you make, that of guys approaching girls who have know they're not flash and who then think worse of a guy who not only approaches them, but tries damned hard to get them. This very same phenomenon exists in the bar areas of Thailand where, I bet, it is even more pronounced. The girls of Isaan have it drummed into them that being short, dark-skinned and having a certain "look" they are not at all attractive, yet they have guys they see as total princes doting on them, falling in love with them and giving / sending them silly sums of money.Anyone that wants to contact the author can do so through Stick.