Over the years there have been a notable number of articles submitted about the morale feelings created when men participate in the pay for play word of sex and prostitution!
I think most readers have to be reminded of the “human factor” that creates the basis of the whole subject matter .we have to realize and recognise that while we are debating and discussing this subject matter there are people all over the world participating in the act(s) of sex….a world wide practice and common occurrence.
Sex and sexuality and all that it involves is the basis of life itself and often enough is what drives us and often consumes our thoughts and directions in life.
The subject matter of mongering is largely about “paying” for sexual gratification with women who are classified by society as prostitutes because they are “paid money” for performing a otherwise common acceptable practice amongst human beings. However, the act of paying money results in the act of sex becoming a commodity of sorts with a price attached and deemed immoral and illegal for the most part.
This simple act of transferring money from one person to another for a sexual encounter then becomes a service of sorts in the eyes of society and the financial system that we live in and understand.
Due compensation received for services rendered just like the many, many other services that we pay for. However, prostitution, unlike those other services or products exists with few common regulations or standards or quality control issues found with other services or products.
In the case of prostitution and the act of paying for sex the act involves several social stigmas and the seldom understood negative ramifications that are highlighted by the financial transaction.
What is a sexual encounter between 2 people and what is it understood to be “without” the financial transaction
Basically it is the end result of human social interaction resulting in 2 people having sex, like everyone else and a private matter, more or less.
Not like sex and the pursuit of sex is always cloaked in mystery and you need to be a rocket scientist to figure it out.
Meantime, billions of people the world over are having sex and pursuing sex and dreaming about sex and wishing for sex and wanting all the more sex while “naturally” lusting for the opposite sex and or the same sex.
That is part of our humanity and all the humans on this planet are drawn to the allure of sex and often addicted to the pleasures of the human flesh and all that it entails.
Common place actually.
So, we can see and understand the common act of sex “without” money by the everyday participants involved is deemed “acceptable” by way of the more or less understood guidelines of human sexual interactions commonly leading up to the act of sex .
However, sex involving payment for sex is seen as “unacceptable” by society.
The same society that willingly participates in sex “without” any commercial payment of money attached to their own personal sex lives is the same society that attaches all the rules and regulations and morals upon societies sexual transgressions.
We all know that sex is a very, very common place occurrence as we all well know by way of the world population.
We all acknowledge that so let us keep that in mind while moving on to another part of the issue and discussion for now.
When discussing the on going subject matter of men who monger and should they feel remorse or have feelings of guilt and angst about their p4p sexual escapades, whether they be on occasion or on a regular basis to the point of addiction, the answer would be yes in some respects and no in other respects.
I guess you have to break the subject matter down and ask the questions point by point and extract the answers point by point.
As pointed out by many submissions there are many points to be discussed to the point it becomes “confusing.”
Apparently the ongoing debate has no clear answers to the questions asked but loads of opinions and feelings attached to the subject so we should not be expecting a clear answer as it is a far from simple subject matter.
I am not expecting any profound revelations or decisive answers.
That comes as no surprise as there are lots of subject matters that have no clear answers while leaving everyone to fend for themselves, in many respects, and most men will form their own opinions.
I don’t have the answers also…just lots of additional factors to be pointed out and considered, as you will learn.
Each person, each man in this case, is going to make his own decisions if he will participate or not participate in prostitution. We learn and recognise that some men do question their conduct and others do not.
I like to think the subject matter of how a person or people conduct themselves is largely based on “knowing” what the majority of people in the world understand to be good conduct verses examples of bad conduct.
With guidelines, if you agree with them or not, you at least know where you stand relative to most everyone's thinking and conduct
Knowing if it is considered “bad conduct” as compared to “good conduct” apparently does not stop many people from doing what ever they want to do anyhow but you should be aware of what the majority of people think and how the majority of people conduct themselves as compared to you..a monger…..if you are a said to be a monger that is.
Awareness of that alone, while being branded with that name may curb your enthusiasm to participate.
To me, the word “monger” when used in this subject matter is a word used to describe a man who has no reservations about participating in the p4p world of sex, resulting in his money being “willingly” spent on sex with prostitutes.
He dives right in and enjoys the whole mesmerising spectacle.
To me, “monger” is a suitable word to describe a man who “repeatedly” pays prostitutes for sex and will continue to do so.
Not his appearance or attitudes or his financial status or social status.
“punter” is a suitable word to describe the many “part time” participants that manage to curb their enthusiasm.
Without the numerous connotations attached we are talking about your average man or any man who’s libido is the driving force and obviously he is not persuaded by the thinking of the morale majority or the laws and rules that they try to impose upon people.
But let’s say you don’t pay for a prostitute or take a prostitute, for what ever personal reasons, but you like to hang around in clubs and areas where prostitutes and prostitution flourish. How then does society and your peers judge you? Are you half a monger or seen as just sleazy ….or what?
if you are one of the majority who “do not” participate in p4p (obviously the overwhelming majority do not) ,when asked to comment on the p4p subject the morale majority are going to oppose p4p and or point out the negative aspects of p4p for any number of good reasons.
To most of the morale majority or “non participants”, prostitution is simply “not right” or “morally wrong” or “uncalled for” or “wrong in the eyes of god” and or a long list of reasons why no person should participate in p4p.
Also, remember that half the world consists of women and it should come as no surprise that the overwhelming majority of women oppose prostitution and many women detest men that participate in p4p.
But prostitution and all that prostitution entails is not that simple is it??
Not so much that it is a morale issue but I think it is more to do with the fact that the overwhelming majority of the worlds population “do not” participate in p4p sex and they, the majority, feel you should also not participate.
The feelings are similar to the ongoing marijuana use debate that goes around and around with all the points for and against the use of marijuana.
The majority of people also oppose the use of marijuana and many are vocal about that issue also.
But, again, the subject of p4p is not that simple..that being to participate or not to participate.
In the minds of the opposing majority it is that simple for all those that do not and never will participate in p4p sex
Like the drug debate , for all those that do not take drugs or participate in that life style use of drugs, it is very simple to them…“just don’t take drugs.”
They feel the same about p4p.
Just don’t participate in prostitution
However as we already know, advocating that opinion and even trying to enforce that opinion by way of law is never going to stop prostitution or the participants.
However, ignoring the many negative ramifications of prostitution would be somewhat irresponsible so more discussion, at least, is always beneficial.
I don’t do drugs and I can most likely assume that the majority of the readers of the stickman site don’t do drugs also, so why is it I can refrain from doing drugs but I really do not try to refrain from having sex with prostitutes.
Why cant I be like the majority and do not participate in prostitution.
I would answer by saying this: as compared to available items in the market places, such as illicit drugs they are products that are understood to be “additional available consumer products ” and their availability within civilizations and societies has evolved because people have “made” the product available to the consumer. You either do them or you don’t and you don not need them but you can choose anytime you want.
Drugs obviously “clash” with society while not being a part of the natural order of humanity and survival but sex and sexuality is as natural as natural as can be.
Your sexuality is “not” an addition in your live or other peoples lives.
Your own personal sexuality it is not something that you can buy and or add to your life somewhere down the road like the way drugs are.
We all know and understand that our sexuality is a natural condition that we are born with and then evolves and becomes a large part of our common wide spread character.
it is not an item that we add to our list of extra consumer items (such as drugs) and your sexuality is not born as a consumer product but it is utilized as the means to obtain your sexual gratification.
Although sex and sexuality is repressed in many ways and everyone has to restrain themselves and their public “sexual” conduct we acknowledge everyone is interconnected to sexuality. Everyone is involved in sex, some way or another and sex is commonly the basis of our “social interactions” between men and women.
We can not really ever escape our sexuality and how it will always influence our lives in many, many ways!
I hope you guys are following my direction here because I am thinking, I can say: “prostitution is a “form” or “extension” or physical expression of our human sexuality and it’s existence is logical in so many ways.
( ok I am now waiting to be beaten with a stick for that idea or suggestion)
I am not saying that as justification for prostitution or the men, in this case, that participate in sex with prostitutes.
I am just trying to have the readers on this subject matter be fully aware that your sexuality and everyone's sexuality is the root cause of all kinds of problems in the world, mainly the population explosion, along with all its negatives that we are seriously aware of more so than ever before.
And you will never, never stop people from having children and the glorified sex that produces the children that we also glorify as part of our sexuality…besides are survival.
We are all “supposed” to be destined to fuck…some people, more so than others it seems.
Prostitution is but one of the deemed to be negative ramifications of human sexuality but your sexuality and everyone's sexuality is not going to go away …ever!
We will always have to live with all the negative ramifications of sex including the spread of social diseases, poverty, wars, rampant over population and prostitution, amongst other things.
As I said before..sex is repressed in many ways but it is just aching to be released in every human being and it has many expressions.
Prostitution can be argued to be one of the expressions of sex and sexuality.
It should be no surprise that prostitution and its participants exists and both evolve and even flourish.
It is humanity in its most basic and raw form.
So what is the matter with humans copulating if there “is” money involved as compared to humans copulating when there is no money exchanged.
It seems to be simple enough …but!
Well..here we go!
There are complications and problems and plenty of considerations because we can see that prostitution basically develops outside or on the fringes of what the majority of people consider to be normal sexual social behaviour.
Because, the so called standards of society deem it to be immoral and illegal for numerous reasons, because that is the way civilizations and societies have evolved concerning the subject of sex and how your sexuality and the conduct concerning your sexuality is percieved.you have been and always will be educated on the limits of your sexual conduct and the limits of how your sexuality is expressed.
There are few other subject matters amongst humans that are so often scrutinized as often as your sexual conduct and there fore your sexuality.
In the minds of the majority and the law and religion, sex and your sexuality is not something that you “pay” for nor should you be “selling” sex and your sexuality.
It is not a commodity and it is not a service and not something to be bargained for while “demeaning” or thought to be “demeaning” the participants who do it for the money and or the people who pay for sex.
(as a side note: what would your sexuality be worth if it was deemed ok and or legal to “barter” your sexuality??)
If you needed a pair of shoes or food would you fuck for a meal or give a blow job for a pair of shoes or let a woman convince you to sell your car to her for ten “standard” missionary style fucks in a row while your trying to negotiate 1o missionary style fucks, 5 doggy style fucks and blow jobs with every fuck and the option for anal sex at least once!
Would you be comfortable bartering your sexuality and how often would you use your sexuality to obtain what you needed or desired within a compliant society that accepted sex as a bartering alternative to cash payment.
Maybe I should make a movie about a futuristic society where everyone has the option of bartering for sex to obtain what they need or want.
Just imagine: “i will give you 100 dollars or a “standard” 10 minute doggy style fuck for that cell phone..lets do the deal..make a decision.
The moral issue comes with the considerations of all the many other problematic aspects of prostitution such as the spread of diseases and numerous other health issues, numerous tax related issues, drug use issues and the connections to numerous other deemed to be criminal activities and many more issues interconnected to prostitution.
It is not the sex part that is so questionable it is all the activities that are “always” connected or associated to prostitution.
The laws and ideals and rules of conduct concerning prostitution and therefore the sex and sexuality connected to prostitution have evolved from the beginning of civilisation and they will always be there and prostitution will never be fully excepted.
When prostitution is scrutinized, so is the act of sex and the sexuality of the participants.
How many citizens would readily accept a red light district in their neighbourhood?
Well maybe some for sexual convenience and those that profit from it..but 95% would not.
All those statements and the convictions attached to them are not my feelings but the world over you will find the feelings and convictions of those that oppose prostitution are based on the above feelings and convictions.
Those “are”the convictions and feelings of the morale majority and the resulting laws that are enforced to stop prostitution.
Even if all the many legal or practical problems where to be addressed and corrected the world over people would have an issue with sex if sex is a “commodity” or service and a price is put on your sexuality.
That is the basis of the moral issue and the rest is more or less based on how prostitution “clashes” with society, as a money generating enterprise.
Not that I fully agree and not that the convictions of the majority and the law will ever stop the practice but prostitution will always carry a considerable amount of stigma in every society no matter what form it takes, even if it is legalised and regulated correctly.
To all of those people who “do not” participate in the p4p world of sex they think alike.
Just don’t pay for sex with prostitutes is what they advocate…..simple!
Just don’t be a prostitute is what they advocate..simple!
However, in the case of sex and money the transaction is not so easily “avoided” because when you analyse the subject matter in depth you can not deny the powerful attraction of sex and sexuality and all that it entails . That includes sex for money because while the end result is sex paid for by money you have to seriously take into consideration the “human factor” and all the ongoing “sexual socializing” and the “human sexual interaction” going on between the 2 sexes anyhow.
This is regardless of any sex occurring by way of prostitution and the payment involved.
The sex part is just that…only a “part” of all the human interaction and socializing that leads up to the act of sex…with or with out the exchange of money.
Sex is going to happen anyhow.
You would have to stop all the natural social interactions occurring to stop sex and therefore prostitution.
Remove the money aspect and sex is going to happen anyhow and does every minute of the day.
I surmise, if you take away all the many consumer products and distractions existing in everyone's lives, right now, you would have all the more sex occurring while having all the more time to enjoy sex.
Sex and it’s many pleasures being worthy of your attentions.
Sex is worth perusing and “what is sex or the perusal of sexual gratification worth????”
It does have a value in many forms.
Even without money involved sex still has value attached to it, often enough exploited or utilized anyhow by way of the nature of humans beings.
Sex and sexuality is used in many ways by both men and women anyhow so it does come with a price attached to it in many indirect ways.
Do “any” of you feel at all guilty with the sexuality that you were born with and do you not defend your personal right to exercise your sexuality??
Has it ever been any different since the beginning of time.
Would you advocate a pill that kills your sexuality and your libido……of course not.
Maybe another peoples but not your own.
Sex , by way of prostitution, becomes the avenue for the exchange of services for money but the realm of prostitution also becomes a meeting place and play ground for men and women who flaunt their sexuality.
Whether it be good in part or bad in part in whatever context you would want to try to analyse the good part , bad part of the subject matter
You have to factor in the social entertainment aspect of prostitution and the all the human social interactions occurring to understand its existence and the arguments for its existence.
And what about women and men who entertain while utilizing and or exploiting their sexuality but they do not receive money for the act of sex. Yet they are still compensated for their time and effort …such as hostesses.
They just entertain men and flaunt their sexuality but they do not have sex with their clients.
They just tease and arouse your sexuality.
Are they to be considered prostitutes also and what of the men who just want to be in the presence of female sexuality and all the entertainment aspects that are afforded them …for a cost of course.
The customers drinks and the admission to the premises, the ladies drinks, the generous tips, the sexual stimulation and arousal the women create and the whole ambience of the entertainment based on female and male sexuality in practise.
Again, I am making a point of all the sexuality in practise and it does not involve the act of sex but it does involve so much of the human sexual interactions that does lead up to sex.
When you go and attach the “direct” transfer of money to the act of sex, then, suddenly the majority of people become your appointed judges and juries!
We are not analysing the purchase of a computer or any other consumer item. This is far more complex than that and for numerous reason why prostitution should evolve into something that does not have so many stigmas attached to it such as the way gogo bars have evolved.
Gogo bars do not fully remove all the problems associated with prostitution but they certainly add a more humane aspect to the whole affair as compared to the many other avenues of prostitution.
You have to consider all the common human interaction that goes on within the realm of prostitution. The minute by minute socializing and posturing by both parties leading up to the mans decision to act upon his desire. That desire being: “i want to do this girl” and I can and all I have to do is whip out my wallet and start paying some money to get what I want. Something I do everyday anyhow for all the other things in life so why not pay some money for the best natural pleasure of all.
In essence it is not far removed from many items that you would or could pay for.
However, society has you second guessing your participation when it involves “paying” for sexual gratification.
At that point you know you have stepped over the boundary line but there is no one really blocking your way, nothing really stopping you other than your conscience….which is already numb to most of life’s paradoxes anyhow.
Do you feel you are doing anything seriously wrong leading up to that point. You are just socializing, sexually interacting, talking while thinking about making a decision and simply enjoying yourself in a setting that was meant to entertain you anyhow and draw money out of you for several other common pleasures attached to the realm of prostitution…the entertainment factor!
Many men go just to look and they “almost” participate and even looking is questionable in the minds of many if you want to be a zealot about the subject.
You are surrounded by raw sexuality. Your not at a movie theatre or a business meeting.
But before you arrive at that point you have to consider all the human sexual interaction that has to occur before a understanding or agreement is struck between you and the girl who will provide you her sexual services.
Before you reach “that point” you could just as easily be in a regular night club or pub, or bar or even a wedding while socializing and interacting with women who are not prostitutes but very well likely to go home with you and perform the act of sex with you without a money transaction occurring.
That scenario happens everyday and the guys chasing the girls are not “mongers” or “punters“…but they could be and thus become a punter of sorts if there “is” money exchanged.
It is understood by all that the girls in such a public night club or any other sexually enhanced social environment ( a house party for example) are not prostitutes but they could just as easily decide to ask for payment. I know that many men “would” give them money because they really want to have sex with the girl or woman and a reasonable amount of money requested or some other form of compensation could / would be acceptable enough to achieve the end goal…which is sex!
For that matter if a man was bold enough to ask a girl if she will “let him pleasure her” for 100 dollars or more we all know there “are” a percentage of girls who would accept your offer.
Just ask any man if he would pay $100 dollars, or more, for any of the hot looking women at the wedding and I can assure you most men would indulge and not think of it as prostitution at all.
Because the girl is a “regular girl” and the place is not known as a place where prostitutes and their clients meet????
The cross over line between prostitution and so called “free, but morally acceptable sex” is a thin line in many respects but still, more often than not, it does cost money in many forms to get laid, if that is your objective.
And that “is” your objective when going with a prostitute but it is not robotic. In many aspects it is normal sociable behaviour, leading up to the sex part.
Ok, blow jobs in the back seat of a car in some downtown alley with a drug addicted near desperate prostitute is an argument against prostitution but what we are talking about here is prostitution as a form of entertainment which we see has developed in Thailand and other countries in a logical way.
The way it should be if it “is” going to exist and not clash so hard with society.
Men have the cost factor on their mind all the time and it is a significant factor in what persuades a lot of men to go with prostitutes. It is simple economics!
Also, more than enough women out there know they can turn to prostitution for a source of money so that factor makes the subject matter all the deeper.
Granted, a so called monger, as outlined in this particular subject matter, is a person who, more or less, is going to a “specific” place or area to choose a girl ( prostitute) and agrees to pay for her time and company and sooner or later have sex with her, as per agreement.
He is renting her time and services.
The “location “ or the “meeting place” would be the fundamental difference between a female who is a prostitute verses a woman who is not a prostitute in the eyes of the law and the moral majority. It is the “location” where prostitutes ply their services and largely the “location” that distinguishes “who is who” and “what you do!”
For the monger / punter, all of this is simple enough to understand when the objective is to get laid without all the “wasted” posturing and attempted awkward sexual interactions, resulting in frustrations and disappointments within the complexities of perusing sex the so called “regular” or normal way.
If the participants want prostitutes and therefore sex for money they do not go to a wedding or any other normal social event or circumstances.
They go to where they know prostitutes can be found so the “location” plays a significant part of what makes the final transaction understood to be prostitution.
So what if a girl is a prostitute but she comes to your apartment during her time off and you pay her a sum of money.
Is that still prostitution or partly prostitution and are you still considered a punter or monger?
Whether you pay for it directly or indirectly the fact remains that the perusal of sex cost money and every man talks about this and bemoans the fact that without “some” money it is hard to get laid because all the social interaction that has to occur between the sexes cost money, in some way or form and often enough notable sums of money…just to get laid……just to have sex.
Any man who says he gets laid for “free” is delusional.
Economically, participation with prostitutes supports many logical reasons for stepping over the boundary into the world of p4p, if sexual gratification is your core objective.
Therefore it is not rocket science to understand why so many men do not feel any remorse about having sex with prostitutes.
Take this into consideration: do any of you feel any serious guilt or remorse when dating a “nice girl” while knowing your main objective is to have sex with her sooner or later?
Then, when you finally do have sex with her you realise that you have no intention of taking it any further and never did.
Happens allllllll the time.
Up until that point you are just dating right? Normal acceptable dating and all the sexual interactions that occur.
The affair more or less ends after the sex and you go your separate ways. Often the relationship ends abruptly or it may fade apart slowly but nothing more other than a “good by” after achieving your objective.
As callous as that may seem it is a very common occurrence amongst the sexes including girls just wanting to get laid with no binding attachments.
Tell me you feel guilty or remorseful about doing that.
If you do it passes quickly..right?
Do you feel any serious guilt about any of the 1 night stands that you have had in your life time?
How about the times your lover was not in the mood but you were, so you more or less “coerced” your horny sexuality on your partner(s) for your own sexual gratification.??
Also common place.
Tell the truth now!
Did you feel guilty about satisfying your libido like that..in that way??
Should we be persuaded by stickman submissions written by the likes of “black bart” and “ah windingo.”
in their detailed submissions they like to explain at length about how the both of them “do not” go with prostitutes ( or did before and now changed their mongering ways)
Rather they “now” advocate you should pursue and fuck other men's wives (read: married women. Read: maybe your wife also!) And or all the many “innocent” Thai girls or the “good Thai girls” with whom you can easily sweet talk and bullshit (read: lie) them into bed. All the while enticing them with money and ply them with lots of alcohol (standard deceitful practice) and calculated good grooming along with phoney soft spoken manners and finally having sex with them ( without a condom I assume ) while having no intentions of anything other than their own personal sexual gratification in the end.
They did have sex but they still paid for the sex ..one way or another. Everything they did to get that girl in bed cost them money.
Hmmmm… ..such stellar examples of male sexuality on the prowl, which happens to be common practice amongst men everywhere actually.
We would want to emulate their shining examples of male conduct….would we not???
And men the world over do just that.
But….they are not “losers” as they like to refer to all the men who go with prostitutes….no not at all ..just sleazy predators of a different sort.
It seems the above conduct is acceptable if the means justifies the end regardless if it leaves emotional scars and heart break and sometimes leaves the girl with a nice “social disease” (from all the bonking they do) or maybe even pregnancy also! Happens all the time!
In their minds and from what they are saying: pregnancy would be her problem ..right?
And when she is pregnant we see that most men run away from it like the scoundrels they are.
But “they” don’t go with prostitutes …….they so boldly brag!
A “real man” (as black bart and ah windingo so often reiterated) would never let a impregnated “bitch” trap them in to being responsible ….right!
Such men gladly ignore their conduct and it’s ramifications with those “good” Thai girls, the “innocent virgins” who thought there was a relationship evolving….but not so at all…just rampant horny male libido taking charge of peoples lives.
What ever it takes to get laid …right?
And no payment was involved so this is acceptable…right?
Besides marriage or a 1 girl relationship the libido induced pursuit of sex with multiple partners is also questionable and has moral conduct issues attached to it also.
The old standard of “fuck em and leave em” and then boast about that because you can say: “i did not pay for it” because “they are not prostitutes“.
This is acceptable because your not paying for it????
This sort of mentality is prevalent amongst men anyhow but few men loose any sleep while agonising over that sort of “manly” “real men” behaviour.
How about a sex school for all the loathsome ways to get laid if the means justifies the end result….as long as you never ever break the high standards of conduct rule that says: “never pay a women cash money for sex” …just use your money to persuade and entice her into having sex with you in numerous ways found in the “bible book of sexual conquest methods”
Just thinking out loud here.
Now having said that I know a lot of eye brows are being raised while asking how I can compare regular guys perusing women and trying to get laid being comparable to sex with a prostitute..
I am not ..I am just trying to point out how the conduct of all too many men concerning their social sexual interactions being practised to get laid are far from honourable if you want to analyse that aspect of men's sexuality.
In part that is the issue we are trying to analyse..mens sexual behaviour…before the act of sex, during the act of sex and after sex
Personally, I feel and more or less advocate, if you just want to fuck as many girl as you can I would rather you do it with prostitutes and leave the good girls and innocent girls alone because they don’t need all the male bullshit imposed upon them that comes with a “fuck em and leave em kind of man” while exercising his reckless sexuality at her emotional expense, along with her health and well being.
But I know that aspect of men's sexuality will not change also so I am just adding and emphasizing another twist to the many ramifications of men's sexuality .. Including sex with prostitutes…..which is the basis of my submission
Don’t come down too hard on me guys for all that I have said…. But those aspects of male sexuality are true ! Ouch!
That is just one more reason why prostitution exists and evolves and it’s existence does address some aspects of sexuality in a positive light.
So much of what occurs sexually and the sexual conduct of men is based on a mans point of view anyhow and should be recognised as a valid point as to why men pursue prostitutes for sex. In part because you can and in part because prostitutes are available and in part because you get what you want! You get to choose the girl that you would “want” to choose anyhow, even if she was not a prostitute.
If women knew “for sure” that men would not pay for sex in any way or form then you could rightly say that prostitution would not exist.
However, men's all consuming sexuality and overwhelming libido is the root cause of prostitution……I think.
It is a valid point to be considered in the debate…but, and or however, it can always be argued: “if the product is available then people will buy it.”
So which side of the equation is more responsible for prostitution..men or women??
I say men ……because we know that women the world over do not pursue men in general for sex but “most “ men will do a woman at the drop of a coin.
That is a fact.
Men always bemoan the fact that women seldom, if ever, approach us and or befriend us, certainly not as a stranger and certainly not to have sex in record time after just meeting…but men think like that.
Once again…..if women knew “for sure” that men where “not” interested in sex then I say women would not become involved in prostitution because there would be no customers…no market.
Once again you can see how our male sexuality gets in the way and changes everything.
There is a huge market waiting for women if they so desire to make a business out of selling sex.
You wonder..seriously wonder if men did not chase women how long would it take to reverse the environment, as we know it to be now and women started to pursue men for sex.
How would they go about doing just that and would they be even more aggressive about getting laid then men and how would we handle all those women who wanted to fuck us just for sport.
Hmmmm..a interesting turn of events …..in theory!
Maybe a dream come true but maybe a nightmare in the long run!
To confuse the issue all the more let us be reminded that some women also pay for sex. Not as often as men but the market grows every year. I surmise that most women who pay for sexual services do not elaborate over any guilt feelings that are “supposed” to be attached to paying for sex.
I would think women would be remorseful and have guilty feelings more so than men but still it goes on in several forms.
I don’t think, the women think, they are exploiting the male prostitute.
Their objective is also the same as a man who pays for sex and it has to be pointed out their perusal of sex for money entails all the social and sexual interactions and posturing that have to occur while leading up to the sex for money experience.
Hopefully a memorable and satisfying sexual encounter for the woman because she is also paying for it and I would think she views the whole transaction the same or certainly similar to what a man would want and expect.
In our societies, such that they are, it is even more of a stigma for a woman to pay for sex ..yet many do ..we just don’t keep that in mind often enough when we discuss p4p sex and those who participate.
Are they to be considered mongers or punters or simply dirty old/ young sluts with money who can not get a man so they have to pay.
I think not.
When you read all the stick submission you can see many of them are saying, more or less, that people will do what they want to do anyhow and or the p4p business exists anyhow so there should be no serious second thoughts or remorse about indulging in p4p.
That is how it is perceived and so it is with many things in life?
Does understanding and recognising numerous facts and revelations presented now address ones concerns and satisfy the question(s) asked?
Do you now take a side on the issue(s) of concern being presented in this forum.
Do you have personal convictions that you will carry to your grave or do you change your beliefs and or convictions as new information and data is revealed to you???
The sex part of prostitution is not an unnatural act nor is most everything leading up to it and p4p has existed for thousand of years in a variety of forms, evolving within cultures and societies as populations flourished.
Those are valid points but they are also generalizations and somewhat self serving excuses to avoid the morale conduct issue concerning prostitution and your participation.
Morality meaning “your” conduct, good or bad, as been understood by the standards of society and the population at large……in other words: the morale majority.
From the dictionary: ( morality) “a system of ideas of right or wrong conduct” “the quality of being in accord with standards of right or wrong conduct”
Participating in sex is not wrong conduct, in most cases and most respects, but paying for sex is!…..hmmmm what to make of that?
The majority see prostitution and the participants as negative burdens on society in many ways and those that participate in prostitution as morally corrupted and or possessing poor values or poor judgement.
They have a long list of valid arguments against prostitution and they exercise their beliefs and opinions through the laws that exist in an effort to stop prostitution and or those that participate in it…that would be you….the men who indulge in the p4p world of sex.
Their morale objective is to stop the practice and or make you morally aware of your conduct and shame you into stopping your whore mongering practices….bad boys that you are…spank, spank!
But we live with all kinds of criticisms everyday so a little more does not seem to bother most people anyhow.
in some of the submissions it is also pointed out that everyone should be aware of the harmful ramifications of their actions if they do indulge. That and how many people, both men and women, do have their lives twisted around in a number of negative ways by the experiences they encounter when participating in p4p.
I think most men are not affected but far more of the girls naturally would be seeing as how women are brought up with more virtuous values anyhow.
All of this is true and has to be taken into consideration and it becomes obvious that some men do not give a damn about the ramifications of their participation in the p4p world of sex yet some men suffer a moral dilemma and everything in between the 2 extremes.
Maybe mental / emotional confusion, in several forms, is part of the equation.
Stick points out that the business is hard on the women!
Well yah, if you have observed it up front and close like he has and makes it his business to observe it and analyse it. And write about it.
Like a war photographer who struggles to make his point about the tragedies of war yet the war continues…like that .sort of!
I think, to most men it seems like a big ongoing party at someone else's house and you’re but a guest so no need to help clean up the mess.
Personally, I have also observed the damage done from participating in it myself for all too many years.
I found myself to be addicted to it because it was the best natural addiction that any man could ever hope for in so many respects. My addiction was, in part, based on getting what I wanted and what I wanted was sex with “that” girl..the one that I could simply choose …and just like that the next level of human to human sexual interaction was achieved while moving me closer and closer to my objective. Any negative ramifications occurring from my actions were seldom on my mind. Powerful driving forces are at work here and it is difficult to curb your lust when a near perfect example of divine sexual femininity is flaunting her wares and strutting her stuff on stage! That thing called sex and all that it entails is powerful addicting.
Did I mention sex is addicting.
But bear in mind a whole lot of simple social interaction is going on before and after the chosen girl is selected (possibly the “after” part of the social interaction is more significant than the before part while remembering the human interactions and emotions going on all the time)
The interactions are not based on being hard or acting hard core and callous about the whole affair or disrespectfull or abusing your social or financial status while taking advantage of the woman's need for money and or treating any of the girls like a piece of meat for your own personal pleasure.
At least that is not the conduct practised by most of the men (90%) and I am certain that is not their intentions also but the surrounding circumstances do create a sense of exploitation in all it’s variations.
Does any of the above “bad stuff” ever occur or exist……certainly….. And no one knows the extent of it but I would be hard pressed to believe “many” of the girls are seriously abused. Some, yes, on occasion but rather they often experience men who are crude and rude and uncaring or small minded and petty and you don’t have to be a prostitute to meet people who are crude, rude and uncaring or small minded and petty.
As for the submissions that say the mongers are losers. I disagree…well mostly.
Yes, some are losers, by “some” standard (who’s standard?) If you could know the men and analyse all of them
It is mainly their looks that you tend to judge (because you don’t know them) and while many of them could certainly present themselves better and clean up their physical appearance and their manner of dress it is not a really important factor, but yes it would be better for all to look respectful in the public eye.
Also remember there is lots and lots of alcohol involved ( what a significant factor and imagine if there was “no” alcohol was involved)
I ……“do not” ..repeat …..“do not drink“…so any of you men out there who do drink are all fucking dipshit, low life, scum bag, socially inept, numb fuck as the bottle of alcohol you drink from losers!…loser, loser, losers..every last one of you ….because you drink!
But I am just pushing your buttons here because I can and I really don’t care if you guys drink yourself to death and or choke on your own vomit when your sloppy drunk and out of control and puking up your last meal.
The point being: I am a saint compared to those that drink in respect to the evils of alcohol yet many of the submissions criticize other men for their conduct concerning their sexuality and yet the criticism comes from men who are habitual drinkers and without a doubt some are alcoholics…..hmmmmmm?
You do what you want and others do what they want ..right.
But non drinkers are going to let you know drinkers are far from saints also and just because you don’t pay for sex does not remove you from the list of reasons you may very well go to hell when you die……something like that if you believe in god, which I do not believe in at all …making life so much less complicated.
I did not say that your losers…just hitting home with another factor to consider…I am saying I don’t judge men who do drink or smoke or take drugs with any serious convictions or opinions on my part and I certainly do not hold the men who have sex with prostitutes in contempt either.
At least to me it is not important. I can easily look past that aspect of the subject debate.
If such a man can not get a girlfriend or female relationship on the go in his home country( for what ever reason) I don’t think he is a loser for coming to Thailand on a holiday with sex on his mind and or having sex with prostitutes.
Those aspects are a matter of opinion anyhow and all over the world there are sloppy, unattractive people, both men and women, having sex and plenty of it going on amongst the Thais also.
Thai men in general are far from handsome and many are fat and sloppy looking and they get laid in numerous ways including paying for prostitutes…more so than the foreigners.
You are amongst friends in Thailand!
Repugnant sex it is not exclusive only to foreigners in Thailand
Remembering that sex with prostitutes is but a fraction of the sexual activity occurring at any given time around the world.
If you are thinking about those poor girls having to have sex with fat, sweaty foreign men with beer breath and bad attitude then think about all the fat, sweaty, beer breath sex with bad attitude occurring every where in the “normal” world of sexual activity. ..with men who are considered upstanding citizens in the eyes of society
Do you feel sorry for all the men that have fat sweaty girlfriends or wives and the sex that goes on between them when the husband is really not in the mood but the wife is insisting upon some sexual satisfaction.
Maybe some men do but I am certain most do not let it consume their thoughts.
Like it has been pointed out time and time again, the overwhelming majority of the girls are not being “forced” to go with the so called “losers’ that some submissions like to elaborate on.
Economically, yes, you could argue the girls are all too often “self obligated” to reluctantly service the so called loser “looking” men but for some reason I really can not find myself feeling overly sorry for the girls.
I am well aware of the conditions and circumstances that the girls work in or under, which more or less obligates them to accommodate a variety of customers and sometimes the customer(s) are fat or very fat and unattractive and very unappealing.
Furthermore, statistically, I never observed a overwhelming abundance of foreign men that were huge or obese and or grotesque anywhere I went in Thailand so how often would a working girl meet men like that. Occasionally yes.
I would not want to be the girl nor would I like to be one of the sewer workers in Bangkok or a rice farmer for that matter. Given a choice I think I may very well “choose” to be a “male prostitute” rather than some of the other difficult choices on offer.
I could learn to live with having to service “some” fat, sweaty female clients with beer breath and bad attitude while telling the woman she is so wonderful and beautiful….given a choice!
I can assure you if the carpet was to be pulled out from under all the “free lance types ” of working prostitutes in Thailand you would have a lot of upset women and very unhappy that you tried to “save them” from having to service all the so called “losers”
That is something they can live with if it is making them money…apparently so.
So what about the male prostitutes in the world that often enough have to service female clients like that?
Do you feel sorry for them and do you think any woman who is fat and unkempt and has not been laid for maybe years is a loser because she uses the services of a male prostitute.
Apparently some people would say yes….but most don’t really allow such thoughts to weigh heavy on their mind
Apparently the free lance type Thai girl prostitutes we are referring to must be thinking this is not as bad as where they came from or where they could be and like any distasteful job you can learn to “grin and bare it” and like any job the overwhelming majority of people in the world are doing their job “for the money”..not because they want to actually be there and or they love their jobs.
There are lots of real shitty mind numbing jobs out there besides being a prostitute.
If “losers” is the way you think of those male participants then it can be argued that now a days and for the last 20 years if you are a white man going to Thailand or living in Thailand you are judged, by many, in the world, to be a loser of sorts!
I do not think that way myself, but many say: “those men must be losers anyhow to go live in Thailand and have sex with those low class slant eyed women…., including a lot of men who would say things like: “i don’t have sex with low life chinks”
Small minded thinking and poorly informed opinions are everywhere and abundant.
In some respects I think the foreign male participants are simply being practical with their money.
The best bang for the buck mentality. That and I think they are lazy in some ways.
The lazy mans way to sexual gratification…get a prostitute!
Go to Thailand!
Highly recommended by many men.
I can live with that…I can understand that.
And, if “that” word: “prostitute” ….that descriptive but demeaning word used to describe a woman who provides sexual services for money does not weigh heavy on your conscience and or your personal morality then by all means enjoy yourself.
You are either there, at the point of sale, or you are not but if you are there then you might as well participate as many others do.
That is why, in part, it is coined an “entertainment industry”
The depth to which you participate is in your control.
Just do it with finesse and respect as pointed out in numerous other submissions….oh and dress well ..just so you don’t “look” like a loser to satisfy all the judgmental observers and born to be “judge and jury types”
I am not going to judge you..maybe just the girl you choose.
I observed human sexuality close up and in my face for 13 years of participation and never, ever judged the participants.
More often than not I had a smile on my face thinking about all the pleasures of life being enjoyed by all those participants and all the human interactions occurring and the fun being had by way of a sexually charged and sexually induced environment.
If you feel you are exploiting the girls and women or “the people” and others tell you that is the case then, like many other submissions pointed out, you can decide if you want to lose sleep or not knowing that your whole live is lived while “exploiting” other people in some way or form, directly or indirectly.
Just the act of drinking a cup of coffee can be said to be exploiting someone, somewhere along the chain of events.
But the core debate here is should you or should you not feel remorse about been a participant in prostitution knowing the details of the surrounding circumstances and the negative aspects and ramifications of your participation.
Let others tell you how bad you are and how you should be condemned…not me!
Naturally you will make your own decision.
Having said that, it needs to be pointed out that I am referring to what we call “free lance” prostitution.
That would refer to gogo bars, beer bars, certain known clubs or hotels or after hours places and areas where the women there come and go of their own free will.
Call girls would be included.
Unfortunately a unknown percentage of them are caught up in financial problems and circumstances that keep them tied to the industry while consuming their personal freedoms and liberties, in several forms, but by and large they are not chained to the industry.
Yes there are more than enough stories about the plight of all too many of the girls who work the bars and clubs and other avenues of prostitution, mainly frequented by foreigners. If you were to hear every woman's story in detail you may find yourself second guessing your participation in a industry that is full of injustices and hardships suffered by the girls and women.
But over all the girls are not absolutely beholden to the industry and or the establishments that you or foreigners such as yourself would meet them in.
Again we are talking about the obvious and or somewhat obvious places and areas that “foriegners” commonly frequent as often described in the stickman website.
The level of remorse you suffer or the burden of your immoral behaviour weighing on your conscience would be considered “low level” if you visit and participate in prostitution at such establishments.
Not that you should disregard the part that you play as “innocent” and without ramifications but I think most would advise you don’t lose sleep over your sexual conduct. Your other conduct. I cant say.
But you may lay awake a night reminiscing about all the wild sex and or memorable sex you had with multiple partners who were far from innocent in many ways.
I think most readers would, more or less , agree we could argue that a sugar plantation worker in poverty stricken “haiti” suffers more hardships and injustices than a prostitute in a Thailand gogo bar or beer bar or rub and tug massage parlour
So your conscience would be better directed to the plight of poverty stricken, abused sugar plantation workers in Haiti.
Now..on the other hand, some of the stick submissions talks about the p4p world of prostitution that the average participant does not even want to acknowledge because what transpires in all too many places is near slavery for all too many girls who end up as prostitutes, not by choice but by unfortunate circumstances.
Truth be told, Thailand and s.e. Asia abound with whore houses and variations there of, that should be called “horror” houses.
Human trafficking is very active in Thailand and the surrounding countries.
In Bangkok, if you ever wonder what a hotel with a number designation means such as “hotel 26” or “hotel 19” and you are curious to know and you walk in to one of them, know that you have now stepped into a world of injustice and emotional hurt.
The girls you meet there are not there of their own free will and the age old practice of “indentured servitude” is alive and well and right under your nose everyday while you pass by any numbered hotel found all around Bangkok but more so in certain areas
Theses are the places that exist because of men and women who are connected to criminal elements and systematic corruption. They make a business out of finding poor girls whose families and life circumstances are such that they are easily taken advantage of resulting in the procurement of “fresh meat” for the short time numbered hotels and other venues that provide cheap sexual services for the “local Thais”.
By way of lies and deceit, coercion and manipulation and all too often outright kidnapping the girls end up in such establishments and they are “forced” to service the many local customers who often frequent these establishments.
One entity feeds off the other and the girls are caught in between.
If you understood the extent of the injustices suffered by all too many of those girls your heart would bleed and I can assure you, you would seriously refrain from ever stepping foot in those places.
The girls are not chained but they are under threat 24 hours a day and accountable for their performance and their where abouts.
They can not leave the place and if they do try to leave or worse yet, run away, they often suffer harsh and cruel abuse including beatings and sometimes minor torture that keeps them in line.
It takes several years to finally pay off their debt obligations before they are released and sometimes they get caught up “again” in the manipulative cycle and chain of events.
There are more than enough newspaper articles, posted occasionally about girls escaping from the brothels and their horror stories are told but few people really pay attention…or care!
The patrons of those establishments are worthy of the title “mongers” more so than men who frequent “free lance type ” prostitute establishments.
If you choose to doubt what goes on then you are out of touch with bitter reality.
Knowing the seedy details may even make you seriously question your participation in the “free lance” establishments also, as the truth of the matter is such that it is all “interconnect” in a number of indirect ways.
If you doubt it you are simply ignorant of what goes on all around you and the extent of prostitution in Thailand and how much of it is disturbing.
Sorry boys ..not trying to lay a guilt trip on any of you but when you do participate in prostitution you do reinforce the whole cycle of misery that many Thai people suffer or find themselves to be overwhelmed ……it “is” interconnected but seldom in any obvious way to foreigners and anyone for that matter.
Yes it is argued that the money from prostitution is commonly put to good use and there is a thriving economy built on sex, as pointed out by numerous submission and the opinions of submitters, in effect attempting to justifying the industry and all of the industries more obvious benefits.
True there is a long list of positives but the long list of negatives also have to be considered. Meantime everyone reading and writing on this site do not suffer any of the hardships or problems that all too many people suffer, born of our sexual desires and lust for the flesh.
The negative ramifications of prostitution are not fully understood or acknowledged nor will they ever be.
For all too many it is not fun and games and wonderful orgasms and gogo bars and good times and cheap beer.
Anyhow ….lecture over
Meantime …..did all my years of participation damage me?
Well, I guess if I was to explain “all” the personal details to a peer group they would more than likely say I am damaged goods “as compared” to the majority of men who never have and never will connect with the p4p world of sex and some of its many minor negative ramifications.
I know I don’t display anything outwardly revealing in the public eye.
If you do participate you will find yourself living on the fringes of normal everyday society ….in some respects.
Not that you will have a hard time living on the fringes in respect to befriending prostitutes far more often than you befriend the regular, average Thai women or the Thai populace at large.
Seedy, in many respects, is an apt word to describe the whole industry and many of the players.
But I don’t feel damaged and I don’t feel that I should be accused or reprimanded for my conduct, then or now or in the future.
Personally I think animal hunters should have more critical attentions paid to them than men who go with prostitutes.
Oops..now I have pissed off some redneck readers.
But many would disagree and advice me to repent and change my ways and control my urges and question my conduct and become a better person by way of the understood to be correct social values of good conduct.
But still I don’t feel remorse and or guilt. I know I will connect again with the p4p world of sex and go through all the motions along with all the anticipation and excitement and pleasure of meeting a new girl and paying for what I want. Plus the orgasm.
Having said that, I know and everyone that does participate has to know and understand that society “does” frown upon your conduct and they have their sights drawn on you and they will often enough voice their opinions about your conduct and they will point the accusing finger at “you“…..“you” the whore mongering man.( I don’t ever think of the girls as whores….just a word to make a point)
You are amongst the misunderstood for your questionable conduct.
That and they will have their pre-conceived notions and opinions about you and your character and your conduct and their thoughts as to why “you” and “your kind” should be exposed and or thrown in jail.
You are easy enough to find in the flesh pots of society.
If you participate in the p4p world of sex you will have to live with the opinions of the morale majority and their efforts to expose your conduct.
Naturally most men “do not” care about other peoples opinions concerning their p4p participation but still the shadow of the morale majority will always be there to “make” you think about your conduct.
Now to make a point in defence of your conduct…my conduct also.
If every man in the world were to be plunked down in a gogo bar and found himself in the same situation, as many of the so called mongers / punters find themselves, time and time again ( is that called an addiction) what do you think would happen.?
I would bet loads of money that most men..70% to maybe 80% ??? …tell me your guess please……would say: “the hell to morals and any guilt I am supposed to feel, I am going to do that girl, maybe just this one time of course…. Because I can!”
“furthermore, they would be thinking: “i really want to do this because it is not a unnatural act and I am a man and I am feeling “naturally” horny by way of all this “raw persuasive sexuality surrounding me.”
They would be thinking: “besides, so many other men are doing it also ….a lot of others I notice…..and what real harm is going to happen?”
“nothing that comes to mind or serious enough to stop me from doing that girl…number # 24 ….up on stage right now.”
(this scenario would be based on having the money to do so and wearing a condom of course)
For sure there will be lots of self serving reasons and more reason and some excuses also going on in your head but that sex thing is so damn powerful and besides: “men are always trying to have sex with girls anyhow so the fact that I am going to pay for this sexual encounter does not bother me one bit.”
“other than the price I have to pay my only concern is what value I am supposed to be getting for my money, yet to be learned, for the agreed upon sum of money.” “but still I am willing to “invest” and find out.”
“hmmmmm …I think this gogo bar thing is brilliant.”
“ why did I not think about this before?” “i can see why so many men do participate.” “she is a goddess.” “i just have to have her …..and… I can.“
“why do people complicate things and attach morale values and questionable conduct issues to such matters….it is just sex!. “it is just human sexual interaction with some enticing money thrown in for good measure.”
As you can see you would not be alone in your thinking.
But once again it is not all “that” simple and stick keeps on bringing up the subject of the damage done to the girls and their personalities and hearts and their well being.
Well, he is correct
There is no doubt in my mind that prostitution can and will screw girls up because, in part, girls and women are an emotional lot anyhow so any time spent in the “flesh trade” will surely leave them with some sort of emotional baggage and or effect their personality negatively someway, somehow.
Men will never really understand what they feel or how they think about what they do for that money and if anything they deserve all the more compassion and recognition for actually doing it, day in and day out.
Most men don’t even want to think about it a whole lot and obviously focus more on their own personal agenda and satisfaction and more or less simply gloss over and ignore the underlying problems with the industry at large.
But the problems are plentiful and they range from the questionable to seedy and nasty and often enough achieve the heights of outright criminal acts that are directly or indirectly connected to the flesh trade.
The play ground that makes up the flesh trade has plenty of behind the scenes deceit and trickery on top of the criminal elements that exist within the industry.
Many of the submissions point out such things with stories and facts about heart break and lies and deceit involving personalities and characters that make for good horror stories.
As a punter/monger you can basically ignore them as you go about achieving your objectives of having a good time while concluding your day with pleasurable sex. However, your participation, although positive in numerous ways, as pointed out by many also sustains a ongoing environment that can suck the life out of all too many..mainly the girls.
But , just as we all tend to be indifferent to the beggar on the street and the masses of poor people we tend to be indifferent to the problems of the flesh trade in its many forms..gogo bars included.
Gogo bars and beer bars and free lance avenues are known to be more acceptable avenues of prostitution and it is hard to think of yourself as a monger ( definition of a monger being: “a person who is involved with something in a petty or contemptible way.” From the dictionary)
Don’t get me wrong guys…not trying to ruin your day here ….and certainly not trying to make you feel guilty but there is this thing called bitter reality and often enough you have to stand up and recognise it …sometimes.
I conclude that stick is most definitely correct when he states many of the girls are damaged. But how they are damaged and in which ways that they are damaged is the real question……not: are they are damaged or not damaged.
I would say the word damaged may be incorrectly used here.
I think “affected” is a more suitable word.
And after they are affected how do they interact with normal everyday society???
Meantime, the appropriate use of words reminds me of a situation I once found myself in while having to confront a real nasty head case of a woman that was sharing a house that I was living in, many years ago.
This woman was a real mouth piece and a man hater and just had to let you know she was “the kind of woman who is in control” ….. But actually she was a “out of control woman” …..if you know what I mean.
One time while she was talking and acting like the “butch” overbearing female that she was so I said what I thought finally needed to be said, while choosing my words carefully and with focused thought.
I said: “why is it every time you open your mouth the word “bitch” comes to my mind…with capital letters“……“b–I–t–c–h” ….as I spelled it for her.
“but you know what?” “in the dictionary the word bitch is used to describe a female dog and obviously you are not a female dog so the word bitch may not be the right word to describe you”
The correct word to describe you is: “asshole”…but you know what? “asshole” does not fit your personality..but the word bitch does. Bitch is concise and to the point..so bitch it is, you are a “bitch”..yes you are.”
The choice of words and what they imply!
After that she did not say much to me…..that being my objective.
I surmise “punter” is a better word to describe the male participants in prostitution rather than “monger” but monger is more fitting if you are trying to infer the participants are contemptible types
I surmise “affected” is a better word rather than “damaged” to describe the ramifications of being a free lance type of prostitute in Thailand.
And that is all I have to say about that.
Perhaps this will be the end of the morality discussion.