Readers' Submissions

Women, Respect, And Experiences

  • Written by BKKSteve
  • September 8th, 2007
  • 32 min read


I was planning a third instalment on the “Inside the In-laws” as they provide a never ending source of amusing if not useful material, but then while reading Phet’s last submission of his “Brokenman” series and as usual enjoying very much his writing style and skill with words, I was struck by how much our experiences paralleled but yet were so different. Reading every detail of his submission I attempted to analyze the differences and while I can’t put my finger on exactly the reason, I couldn’t help but finish with the impression that his level of toleration and niceness far exceeded my own. More, his expectations were less, at least those stated. Running my own not too distant dating past through my mind concerning Asian women I had to wonder why he continues his search unabated, while going through what I consider “older” women.. and often finding disappointment and then solace in the P4P scene, while my own journeys were in the company of a much younger set of women usually with happier endings. I couldn’t help but think the old adage “nice guys finish last” was at play as often as old Murphy is constantly waiting to pounce and spoil things.

Admittedly I was more than impressed with the amount of detail retained about his rather long list of acquaintances and distractions. He seems to remember so much about each and every lady he’s had the pleasure of spending time with. In contrast I’m much the same about some of them, but many didn’t warrant remembering their names the next day assuming I learned what they were the night before. Let’s take an unusually blunt and straightforward look into some of my more memorable encounters leading up to my most recent marriage along the same lines Phet took, leaving the other 95% unmentioned.

Jumping back into the dating pool right at 40 years of age I frankly expected to not be dating much if at all. The last 10+ years of my life were spent married and married in such a way that I honestly didn’t think about other women or dating or even fantasies with other women. I had married my fantasy and till this day that hasn’t changed. I remember the day the final divorce papers came. Leaving them unopened on my desk already knowing what was inside I slipped my ring off my finger, placed it in an envelope with the first gift she ever gave me, and posted them to her with a note saying “now you can have this to follow your own into the river.” Those with experience with Korean women will understand the significance. It took weeks to get used to the feeling of no longer wearing my ring, but much longer to get used to the reactions I received not wearing it. That day I went to the same small grocery store I’d been going to for ten years and the same cute cashier who had been helping me for two of those years took one look a the white ring of skin on my left hand and asked “are you free tonight?”

She was corn (what we GIs called white American women while in Asia) and it had been over a decade since I had corn, and I realized that a decade ago she was probably not even ten years old! That night I had corn for the first time in quite a while, it was nice but it wasn’t rice. Over the next few months I went through most every available corn treat in this small Oregon town and realized that without exception each one was looking for the same thing, a reliable man with a stable income who wasn’t a drug user or alcoholic who would take care of them and their kids. A dinner at the local steakhouse was considered a great date for them. Not much different than what you hear Isaan women are after when you think about it. A few rice treats who were the daughters of our town’s only Chinese restaurant made me pine for my return to Asia and these thoughts are what prompted me to return to Thailand to enhance my education.

During this time I had phone conversations with the Taiwanese wife of a friend who enjoyed lecturing me at least once a week on what type of a woman I should look for, of course she should be Taiwanese, speak Cantonese, and be one of her friends. Explaining that I was in the process of being accepted into a degree program in Thailand I had perhaps a year before I could expect to start and I missed the physical trysts that my ex and I enjoyed so much. Soon the phone rang and a 30 year old Taiwanese friend of hers in Vancouver, Canada, was inviting me to her home for the weekend. Not knowing what she looked like, what her personality was like, nothing.. I trusted my friend’s wife and headed north for the nine hour drive into Vancouver. Following my map I was soon impressed with the huge homes on her street as I looked for the right number. At the time I was driving a brand new Cobra Mustang and I figured she must have been told I liked to garage my car because when I drove up the drive she opened one of the garage house's many doors and motioned for me to put my car inside.

She was very typical. Slim, nice looking, well dressed and even better spoken, she showed me to a room and said she had set out towels for my shower and dinner would be ready soon. This woman was all business and after dinner didn’t waste any time letting me know why I was there. Twice a month I’d drive to Vancouver and stay in her home which cost more than I could ever hope to afford, stay in a huge guest quarters, we’d enjoy dinner, swimming, workouts, and then an evening and following morning of sex before I was back on the road heading home. It was good, pleasant, but more than a bit empty and after a few months it grew old so I called my friend and we talked and it was then that I learned she was married! She didn’t care about my car being garaged except she didn’t want the neighbors to see it parked in her drive over night, and she had no intention of having anything but pleasant talk and sex with me ever. Her husband was gone 10 months of the year on business and she was lonely and had needs. My friend’s wife reminded me that I told her I had needs too and we both benefited. I suppose we did. The total monetary cost of that relationship was the fuel it took to drive to Vancouver twice a month.

Soon after I moved to Santa Monica with the plan of staying there for six months before moving to Thailand. I rented a studio guest cottage behind a nice home right next to Santa Monica College and soon I was dating college students, mostly corn but enough rice to add variety. These girls were incredible. Young, fresh, uninhibited, they knew what they wanted and that was to spend a fun time with an older man as a distraction to the young guys they were used to, and they never even mentioned anything about a future or even the next week. We’d meet while I was walking my old Aussie, at the grocery store in the organic food section, while playing with my son in the park during his visits, and other normal places. They were neither shy nor bashful about their intentions and I must say it was both enjoyable and surprising. My landlord on the other hand was a not so bad looking 40ish blond who I probably would have been happy to spend time with right after my divorce, but by then I’d discovered “modern women” almost two decades younger and it was all I could do to avoid her constant advances, inviting herself over to my place uninvited, and intrusive personality. I have to thank her though, it was during this time that I decided a woman even near my own age wasn’t really what I wanted, most came with entirely too much baggage and were looking to move way too fast like they were making up for lost time and trying to fit back in with their married friends who had never divorced.

It was during this period that I received a letter inviting me to an annual Chulalongkorn University Alumni banquet and my contact was a Thai lady about my own age who encouraged me to come, saying that since I would be going to the Sasin business school it would be good if I came and met everyone. The banquet was held in a nice hotel in Orange County, and easy hour drive, so I accepted and that night found myself seated at a table with four other single guys, one younger and the other two older. It didn’t take us long at all to figure out our “contact” was the same lady and she was spending time with each of us in sort of a selection process. I flatly told her during a dance that I wasn’t interested and didn’t appreciate her putting me on display and inviting three other men, that she had given me the distinct impression I would be her guest and I wasn’t even seated at her table! When I told her I would be leaving she apologized and asked me to stay saying there were many younger women I should meet. I left anyway not being able to shake the feeling this entire function was a planned event to lure in single men and evaluate them to see which Thai woman they’d fit with. To this day I’m sure this was exactly what it was all about, at least a significant part of it. All the questions about my education, if I had kids, plans for the future, were nothing more than a overt screening process. It left a very sour taste in my mouth.

During this time my free evenings were sometimes taken up chatting to a new IM friend I’d met on Yahoo. She was a Chinese / Malay who held a position with the UN inside Thailand and my nights were her days so I’d chat with her when she had free time at work. I must admit I liked her a lot. Her age was only 7 years younger than myself, she was a native English speaker, great education, and seemed a lot of fun. An attractive, educated, and fun professional woman. Somehow I became convinced we were made for each other despite having never met! The time came for me to fly to Thailand for a month for my interviews and leaving my Aussie with my mom I flew to Thailand where she picked me up at the airport and took me to the serviced condos where she lived and had arranged for a nice 2 bedroom suite to be prepared for me. I must admit it was a fun month and during this time she took me all around Bangkok, introduced me to friends, and we got to know each other very well. We’d take turns picking up the tab and she always drove her own Volvo sports sedan for transportation.

I have this habit (I’ve broken it only once), that when I’m really interested in a lady I’ll not sleep with them right away, they’re worth getting to know first. She was no exception. On my last night there we were sitting in my living room and my flight left in a few hours and we hadn’t yet talked about what would happen when I came back in a few months to stay for my school. I’ll admit, she was driving me crazy sexually. She was very well dressed, exceedingly beautiful, and had a skill with perfume where there would only be a slight hint of the aroma when near enough to her in the right places. Somehow she was kissing me and for the first time since my divorce I was enjoying a woman as much as I did my ex, and over the next hour we kissed, lightly petted, and found ourselves to be very compatible physically. The phone rang and it was security letting me know they’d called my taxi and it was time for the airport. We arranged our clothes and hugged each other goodbye and soon I was in the taxi by myself heading for the airport and we hadn’t said one word about what had just happened. If I wasn’t serious about her I would have slept with her weeks ago, certainly that I didn’t sleep with her right then was sufficient cause to warn myself that I was getting involved way too fast. It’s like driving your car on the track, you can feel the rear end start to break loose and if you don’t ease the pressure on the gas you know it’s going to whip around and you’ll lose control. It was exciting and intoxicating. All the way back to the states I couldn’t stop thinking about her and her perfume on my shirt would have never let me.

The next six weeks were busy saying goodbye to everyone and spending most nights chatting on Yahoo messenger with her. I’d stopped seeing the college girls, after her none of them interested me despite their beauty and youth. All I could think about was getting back to Thailand and seeing her again and starting my degree program. Not wanting to scare her off I didn’t dare mention moving in together, or dating, or anything. I didn’t even know what her thoughts were, only that it was obvious we worked well physically together. Finally the day came to leave to Thailand for good and after clearing immigration and customs there she was waiting for me. Back to the serviced apartment, this time she had managed to arrange a nicer one with a better location. We dated, spent time together, and once day months later finally slept together and I must say it was memorable in every way. Here I was in Thailand and not only hadn’t I ever experienced the P4P scene but I’d never even dated a Thai woman, and now I was living with a woman I was thinking about marrying! Alas, all good things come to an end. After six months of great times she showed her true colors, she lost her temper in a most classless way and at that instant I was reminded of why my ex and I couldn’t stay together despite our obvious love for each other. I gave her five days to leave and stayed at a hotel until she moved out. Everyone told me I was crazy because we fit together, looked great together, seemed to be happy together, but by then I’d made up my mind and she was history.

I started dating Thai women and they certainly weren’t a difficult date. Some I enjoyed, some I didn’t. One woman I dated ONCE was a stunning girl from Roi Et who was maybe 22, and she worked as a clerk at the Central Mall and wore one of those exceptionally cute tan colored camping type shirts and matching skirt on the job, the kind with a small camel on them. With jet black hair and almost black smooth skin she was simply stunning, so I asked her out. Very white teeth smiled at me and said she’d go out with me, but would it be ok if she brought her girl friend. I said it was, but by the time we all jumped in my truck to go eat I had three of her male co-workers and two of her female co-workers. They directed met the place on Rachada with the big neon lobster? A nice seafood place, I’ve since been back many times. I didn’t mind her friends coming, but I started to get suspicious when they all started ordering not only the most expensive lobsters and sides, but also when they sent out for two bottles of fine Johnny Walker Black. Seeing the writing on the wall I ordered a Pepsi and in their greed to order the most expensive items on the menu they never noticed I didn’t order anything to eat. I waited for the dinner to come and was sitting there watching them eat like kings and no one even looked at me as the whisky was opened and shared, and I was never even offered any! I could have been invisible. Excusing myself to the restroom I exited the back of the restaurant and got in my truck and left. I really hope they had the 12,000 baht I estimated their dinner to cost as I was sitting there mentally adding things up while they ordered. It was an important lesson.

In my submission “Fantasies that Come True” I talked about a model I dated who paid for everything and had loads of money. I really liked her, but I soon realized (ok, it took months but it was a nice ride) she was just after a boyfriend experience so it had to end. She was Taiwanese also, and my experience with Taiwanese women so far is that they don’t mind paying their own way, and even picking up the entire tab if they’re having a good time along the way. My friends who have married Taiwanese women ALL say they will insist on controlling the family funds and once married will become very tight with money and take their economic future very seriously. Perhaps, but in the meantime this girl was an awesome experience I wouldn’t trade for anything.

Mostly what I’ve noticed with Thai woman, if they respect you, is a sharing of expenses. Once girl I’ve had the pleasure of spending time with could easily be a Playboy Model, and as a photographer who photographs and knows “editorial model” material I don’t say this lightly. By this time I was in my mid-40’s and she is 26, has her MBA, and holds a executive position with an American resort company here in Thailand and has been working for them almost two years. Her family is very well off and she dresses and drives the part. Still, her pay check is not equal to mine and we’ve both been open about our finances. The way we handle it is that she’ll pay for lunch, and I’ll pick up the more expensive dinner. Sometimes we’ll stay at her place, sometimes I’ll get a nice hotel room. We constantly shared all expenses at a ratio that reflects our respective incomes. This is the way it should be done if a “future” is ever to be considered. Another lady in her mid-20’s made only 9,000 baht a month, yet she would pick up her share of expenses commensurate to our incomes. This has held true with every woman I dated more than once. If they didn’t show a willingness to be reasonable, and instead showed a eagerness to profit from our relationship, then I’d move on without hesitation.

We’ve now moving significantly away from the topics Phet wrote about and into different waters, gentlemen please climb about the Reality Express and let me take you to areas of discussion I hope you find useful.

I’m going to make a comment at this point that some of you won’t like, but I’ve been wanting to say it for a long time. I don’t want a girl that puts toothpaste on my toothbrush, cuts my nails, and bathes me. The only woman who has ever done that for me was my mother, and the last time she did that I was eight years old! This isn’t to say that I don’t enjoy a mutual bathing as sexual foreplay, but I certainly am not looking for “mothering” and I definitely do not confuse mothering with sexuality. The women I enjoy are strong independent creatures with their own minds, their own futures, and their own lives. I’ll never understand a “man” who wants a woman to “mother” him and sexualizes the experience. All this talk about toenail clipping and bathing and how it stops after marriage.. perhaps that’s because the woman is looking for a strong man and not a young boy?

Something else. Money. I’ve lived in Asia for over 20 years and if there’s one thing I know about Asian women is that they want a man who knows the value of a baht and who they can have confidence in to support and take care of the family. If you throw around money, are foolish with money, let yourself be cheated or used for money, then the woman WILL NEVER consider you suitable marriage material. She might marry you, but she’ll do so with the plan of taking money from you and not spending the rest of her life with you. This isn’t about being cheap or generous, it’s about being smart and being the sort of man an Asian woman would want to be the head of her family. If you are smart about money, thrifty, know how to shop for a deal, but can still be generous when appropriate, you’ll receive very high marks in the “desirable husband” category. If you give in to her every whim, waste money, allow her to take advantage of you, she might look at you as a source of cash, but NEVER as a serious life long partner. Let me make this even more clear, if you are not MORE clever about money, more thrifty, more smart about finances than her.. then you will never have her true respect as a man. No Asian woman respects a man who allows himself to be taken advantage of, especially if it happens where friends and family can observe. If you ever want to gain respect in her family, be considered for the head of family role, then you must absolutely be “more” everything about money (thrifty, smart, clever, bargain hunter, banker, loan officer, etc, etc, etc) than anyone else in the family. End of story, stop, period, hold the big black train. There is no compromising on this issue. M&M’s, mothering and money, they usually go together and Thai women know it.

Not all Thai women are the same, far from it. I’m convinced there are many Thai woman who are responsible about money and won’t look to a farang as a walking ATM, yet there are enough of them out there who do think this way and who by default seem to know where to find the farangs who will tolerate this poor behavior, that it gives the impression all Thai women are like this. There are areas in Thailand where there are high concentrations of farangs, and the girls after money know where to find them. They think about this when selecting which department store to work in, which restaurant to wait tables in, where to go to the movies, and how to increase their overall exposure to farangs and thus their chances of hooking up with a walking ATM. Others might accidentally find themselves dating a farang, but will quickly listen to family members on how to fleece the farang. Do you really want to marry a woman who will allow anyone, even family, to take advantage of you? Friends, it’s all about getting off the beaten path taken by most farangs and blazing your own trails and enforcing the standards you desire. Not everyone will appreciate you being responsible with your money, not much profit in it I’m sure. But I guarantee you those women who are interested in spending an actual lifetime with you would much rather be married to someone they can respect when it comes to money, and self, and who won’t let others take advantage of them. After all, if you let others take advantage of you then what would give them confidence you won’t let someone take advantage of them?

We often hear complaints from western men asking “why do Thai women think all we are is walking ATMs” and it’s not really all that hard to figure out. Western men are unfairly represented here in the Kingdom. The vast and overwhelming majority of western men coming to the LOS come here to participate in the P4P scene, and while we all know there are many kinds of men who participate, we can admit that most of the ones doing so are doing so because they can’t find what they prefer to sleep with in their own countries for whatever reasons. They come here on a 1 – 3 week vacation after saving all their disposable income up to a year or more, and then go hog wild with money leaking out of their pockets at a surreal rate. Now, keep in mind that most Thais, especially from the rural areas, have no concept of saving, and especially no concept of saving for a overseas vacation. They’re watching western men going through incredible amounts of money in incredibly short periods of time, and is it unreasonable that they then deduce that as a western man your pockets have no bottoms? They don’t know and couldn’t understand if you told them, that you saved all year to come here and blow off some steam. You know that by the time you get back on the plane and head home that you’re going back to beans and franks for a few months to pay off your charge cards and maybe a few more months to save up for another trip, but they think everywhere you go, every day of your life, money is leaking through you like it grows on trees. Can you blame them at all for wanting to stop and catch some of it before it blows away in the wind?

We could also draw a similar look at loud and boorish behaviour from western men, very casual or poor dressing standards, and much more, but let’s stick with the money for now. You get off the plane and start spending what to them is incredible amounts of money, and then you get upset when they think you always have that much money to spend? We’ve all sat in the bars that cater to western and Japanese men and watched the carefree attitude with which money is separated. Let’s consider how Thai men spend their money on professional women.

If you visit the better massage parlors you’ll find well dressed Thai men eating, sitting at the bars, in the sports rooms, watching entertainers, all enjoying themselves in a quiet and very relaxing environment. There’s no loud music (except in some areas of a few of them), it’s well lighted, everyone is relaxed and calmly enjoying themselves, and it’s much more of a family restaurant feeling than the bars that cater to westerners. Seated around the out perimeters will be the women seated in different areas wearing numbers, quietly chatting among themselves or perhaps on the phone (if they don’t want to be selected), and everyone is very well behaved, relaxed, and methodical. If a man sees a woman they’re interested in they ask one of the floor managers to invite her to the table and she quietly comes out and the man talks to her a bit “shopping” for the type of woman he can enjoy a few hours with. During this time they’ll bargain with the floor manager and the woman hoping to get the very best rates. If they tip the woman at all, it will be a small amount. They’ll be spending money, but not throwing around money. They conduct themselves with pride and dignity, interact quietly with those around them, and behave just like they would at any other restaurant or shopping center. No one is carelessly throwing money around or being wasteful in any way. The girls know if they go with these men they’ll be expected to perform for the entire 90-120 minutes required. With a western man they’ll often not massage you afterwards even if you ask, with a Thai man, or a man they respect, they’ll work overtime to massage, entertain, and generally earn their pay. A western man might toss them 1000 baht tip and think “Hey, I only come here a few weeks a year and what’s 1000 baht”, while a Thai man ‘might’ give then 100 – 200 baht, but only if the girl was exceptional from start to finish. There’s a lot more about these places that might interest readers, but I wanted to draw this comparison about money.

We see this same attitude at all the tourist venues from night markets, to restaurants, hotels, bars, and so on. From the time a westerner gets off the plane until they get back on, they’re leaking money at a very high rate. It doesn’t surprise me in the least that Thai women think it doesn’t really hurt to help separate you from your money in any way they can, or that they don’t really have to work for their pay for more than the standard 2 – 3 minutes. Western men have done this to themselves. Those of us who live here full time as expats or company men feel the effects of the western tourists almost continuously. Prices we get quoted or charged reflect the money leaking tourist. This is another reason why it’s critical for those who live her to learn the customs and language as a means to separate ourselves from the tourists. Yet when dating many Thai women can’t help themselves from thinking that all westerners are rich and ready to pluck in any way they can. The only way to help them see reality is to act real. Let me go into this a bit more.

If you’re dating a Thai woman and despite you trying to explain to them that money really doesn’t grow on trees hey keep asking / demanding more, or expect you to pick up huge checks and expenses, you might want to question their motives in dating you. The hallmark of a desirable wife is a realist, a woman who knows what money you have and what you don’t have and helps you manage finances in a responsible manner. They’ll often find ways for you to save money, not keep demanding you spend it. Demanding a huge sin-sod, family support, a big ring, a house in the country, without ever sitting down and discussing finances with you is a danger sign. If you’re taking her to the west, and she hasn’t asked you how much it costs to live there, and you haven’t detailed your expenses, but yet she keeps asking for a big sin sod or whatever, then it becomes obvious “the now” is her real goal and “the future” is secondary if at all. Girls you date, girls worth dating, should show at least some signs of concern towards your financial well being, and it really should increase and she should become more understanding and helpful as the relationship progresses. A P4P girl is only interested in what she can get from you today, if a girl friend acts like this then she’s not worth having as a girlfriend. The entire point of having a girl friend is enjoying a relationship that may turn into something serious in the future, if they make it clear they’re not concerned about your financial future than it will never get serious so it’s time for her to go and perhaps the next one will be more mature.

Nice dinners. When I was first married we didn’t have much money so when an anniversary came around we’d try to do something special, out of the ordinary. A semi-expensive dinner at a nice restaurant would often be the choice. You’re rewarding a wife, a woman who raises your children, irons your clothes, keeps your house, she’s earned a expensive dinner every now and then. What kind of woman expects an expensive dinner on the first or second date? Or for that matter to enjoy the fruits of your labor so quickly and unearned? This is what I was thinking sitting there at the seafood restaurant watching this girl I asked out, and her friends, ordering all this expensive food when she hadn’t known me for more than a few hours. It’s what I was thinking when I got in my truck and went home leaving her with the bill to pay for what she ate, after all there was no agreement on who would pay, we didn’t know each other long enough to have discussed that much less for her to have earned an expensive meal. Obviously, she was way too immature in her thinking for me to consider even finishing that date, much less take out again. We need to save the nice dinners, expensive gifts, and great vacations for the women in our lives who have earned it. Not just give in to women hoping that because you do they’ll climb in the sack with you. If getting laid is what you’re really after then pay attention to the Thai men, they have the system down and you can learn a lot from them. But, especially when dating, don’t let women take advantage of you. I guarantee you that you’ll get more respect, get laid more often, and have much more control over your life and not get stuck with some woman who thinks anger, screaming and yelling, and other childish displays are the way to bargain for what she wants.

Women love to get laid just as much as men, make them pay for you once in a while. Where is it written that men must pay for the date? Dating is a negotiation. Use your negotiating skills and when you see a woman act outside of your expectations then kick her to the curb and find another one. There’s one thing Thailand has plenty of, wonderful and beautiful women. Every time you appease some woman with poor behavior you’re giving up an opportunity to replace her with a truly nice lady who would act reasonably, responsibly, and with class.

Consider this, women are turned on by men who are confident enough to demand good behavior and proper manners. This is a fact. By not letting women get away with murder, childish behaviors, selfishness, take financial advantage of you, etc.. you are really becoming the kind of man they lust after. Adjust their behavior firmly, fairly, and with class, and you’ll have them literally begging to stay the night. Show them that you’re every bit the man that a Thai man is, more show them you are stronger and more confident, and they’ll do anything to be with you. Instead, men are worried about their clothes, comb-overs, a bit of pudge around the middle, things that don’t really matter much at all for Thai women thinking long term. Thai women get HOT for men who show them they’ll be able to take care of them and their children, a biological fact, women go for the strongest providers. These aren’t always the guys with “six packs” and fat wallets. They’re often the normal every day guys with enough confidence and inner strength to demand they behave properly and who won’t them get away with nonsense. Those are the guys not only getting laid tonight, but who will get laid every night they want.. for free.

Until next time..

Stickman's thoughts:

Heaps and heaps of excellent advice in there.

I liked the paragraph about woman not liking a man throwing money around, unless she is going to use you for that money herself.

Also, isn't it interesting how women in the West will bonk you in their own home, but in Thailand, you will never get near her house until the two of you are VERY serious!

And I just LOVED the way you ditched a girl who was feasting at the trough, that bird and her hanger on friends at the seafood dinner. UNEARNED – what a great word to describe that situation!

I am appalled at the way some women invite all and sundry and then order the most expensive item on the menu. I remember this once happening in a group situation. A bird ordered a lamb dish which was the most expensive thing on the menu. When it came, even before it was placed in front of her, she exclaimed that it smelled bad. I mentioned that it smelled like that because it was fresh and that was exactly how the finest New Zealand lamb should smell! She sent it back without touching it.

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