Stickman Readers' Submissions June 22nd, 2004

They Won’t Change But They Can

They WON'T change, but they CAN change.

He Clinic Bangkok

They WON'T adjust to your (Western) country, but they CAN integrate into the local culture IF they really want to.

I'm talking about bargirls and the behavior most display.

This is in response to the recent post entitled "Monkey Follow".

CBD bangkok

It's true that many guys in relationships with bargirls seem to find the girl never wants to work, always expects the farang or Westerner to pay, leaves him out of many conversations, seems childish, seems to have no concept of long term planning (especially financially), etc., etc., etc.

I don't dispute this reality, which I suspect is what most Thai / Farang relationships are like, given the Thai in said relationship is so often a bargirl. I won't question Stickman's comment that most farang in such relationships are not "truly" happy either, though I will point out many such guys may consider themselves happy because they judge happiness heavily on the quality and quantity of their sex life (something most Thai girls are willing to freely "exchange" for all the poor treatment listed above). However, I will point out that perhaps we need to look at the CAUSE for why so many Thai bar girls don't integrate into Western culture and won't change to contribute their half of the effort in a Thai Farang relationship.

I propose that the reason so many Thai bar girls won't change is because they don't want to. They won't work because they have no desire to. They leave their husbands out of conversations because they prefer to speak to a Thai girl they've only known for a few months or days even. This reflects on the reality that their husband is either NOT truly viewed as a spouse / friend / companion (but only as a source of financial support) or that the cultural / age / language gap is just too great. They demand and demand money because their husbands are either too willing to give the money, too unwilling to make a stand and demand fair treatment, or because they really would not have married this older / or less attractive / or less interesting man if the money wasn't part of the picture.

The point is that while there is certainly validity that these girls are often uneducated, close minded, and lazy, there may be other more obvious, but less attractive explanations the farang husbands need to face. It could be that the girl is insisting on the one thing or set of things that made them willing to marry the man in the mirror these guys are. If the age gap is large, if he isn't so handsome, if he isn't so interesting, etc. then why is this younger more attractive woman with him? If the girl had no other reasons to fall in love with her husband, why shouldn’t she demand something for marrying someone she isn’t really interested in emotionally? Could it be that Asians actually have another reason why their women prefer much older men, other than that they consider older men more handsome? Absolutely. It’s the same reason why some Westerner girls will marry a much older guy. The reason is money (call it security or escape from poverty if you want to make it more palatable), followed by a more accommodating husband (i.e. a guy that will take crappy behavior most Thai men may not). I emphasize the primary reason is money.

wonderland clinic

Part II

Notice I am referring specifically to why Thai bargirls usually won’t change, when they can despite all the farang willing to justify this inflexibility with claims of culture, low education, etc. As an aside, certainly many Thai women, who are not bargirls, especially those from less educated backgrounds, are also prone to resist change. Here, it can be due to again, the fact she was / is married to a farang for financial reasons first / love second-last-not even there. It could also be due to the reason used to excuse bargirl inflexibility —- Thai women and people, especially at the less educated levels, are less able to deal with change. While this is true to an extent, Thais can definitely change, and they will, if they are in a marriage for the right reasons and have a basic understanding / desire to take care of their spouse and be taken care of by that husband. While normal Thai wives will consider doing this, most bargirls would simply have no reason to. One is motivated by genuine love and commitment; the other may obviously be more motivated by selfish gain. For many bargirls in a marriage (most, I believe), it is all about the money in the end, with perhaps some lust, ego, and self-validation built in as after-thoughts. Exceptions are rare and they are a small minority, which means most farangs won’t be with one of these “exceptional” bargirls.

Here’s a perfect set of examples. Punter A meets a bargirl, moves to LOS 2-3 months later to be with her, moves her in immediately as a cohabitating girlfriend, soon she turns into a common law wife when she does the classic slip in referrals to her large, overweight, aging punter as “husband”. He eventually marries her, “Thai style” (i.e. gets extorted for an above market sin sot to an older, divorced Thai prostitute), and supports her with a large allowance and sends at least twice the required monthly “allowance” to indulge her up-country parents. She claimed she wanted to work in a professional job once, actually has completed 1-2 years of Thai university, and has one of those faces / bodies — she acts / dresses like a classic Western whore to be blunt, but could easily pass as an office girl if she learned to dress appropriately and not do the “hooker style makeup” routine. She could change, but she won’t. Bargirls are usually a lot of bait and switch. They are all talk (for what the guy wants to hear) and no action in their ambition. Why? Because their only ambition in most cases is to hook a wealthy farang (by relative standards) and leech off him.

Then there’s bargirl number two. She is a friend of a friend and someone I’ve known for many years. She asks my Thai friend and me to find her a handsome farang regularly. When told what she must do —- move overseas, actually work at a difficult cross-cultural relationship, work go to school, get used to a cold climate, etc., what does she do? BG 2 says, she just wants a guy who will come to LOS every 6-8 months, whom she can screw for 2-3 weeks, and where she can get a nice 10-30k Baht monthly allowance from. This is perfect bargirl thought on a “relationship” with a farang. Of course, what kind of man will go for this? Likely, an older, less socially adept, more crass, less attractive type punter. She is so crass in her demands, I seriously doubt any younger or more attractive punter would not see thru her clear intentions. Unfortunately, even the smarter punters can have problems spotting the more subtle, less obvious, but equally selfish intentions of smarter bargirls. However, justice does exist in the world at times, and in her case, she has been paid back with the reality that her last 3 farang relationships have been with men that used her for sex and company, either with very little or no payment in return. Despite her evil intentions, she is luckily not smart enough to get away with it. (Before anyone responds marrying for money is not evil, I am not saying it is here. Only that marrying for money, but disguising it as love is a clear act of immoral deception and that is evil. Just ask anyone that’s been the victim of such a scam. Examples abound.)

Now, are there guys who have "truly" happy marriages with Thai women (bargirls or not)? Certainly there are. Stickman, from all we are told on this website, appears to have one. I know of at least 2 couples who are also happy "most of the time". Few such men are heard from, in my opinion, because few such men actually exist. The minority that are out there either don’t share their good news, out of fear it will drive a new generation of hopeful failures or they may even fear their “good relationship” may turn out to be false later on. I’ve concluded this from personal experience and observation of others in Westerner / Thai relationships. The common traits of the “presently happy couples” appear as follows, from my observations. Money is not shared by the husband with the wife heavily, if at all. In other words, he isn't supporting her family, he didn't pay a big or any sin sot at all, he doesn't pay for every whim she has in shopping, etc. In at least one case, the guy isn't paying for anything his wife needs, while she actually takes care of him. In another case, the Thai wife truly shares all expenses with the husband. In a third case, the Thai wife and husband are both financially independent enough that they both pay at their whim, to the point where when they go out, who pays is simply a function of who went to the ATM last. This may sound harsh for a farang or Thai girl whose idea of a “relationship” is where money goes from farang (man) to Thai (woman), but this is not unusual at all for Western relationships in America or the UK. Why is it such a surprise that removing money as a "motivator" would make a difference? More importantly, why have Western guys suddenly found it acceptable that a woman (i.e. Thai girl) should claim to “love him too much”, yet refuse to stay with him in the absence of financial support? Isn’t this the definition of a hooker for a wife? There is a big difference between paying for a one-night fling and paying for a life-time!

Removing money serves to filter out the gold-diggers and “women that see their bodies and sex as a valid way to live a life of leisure”. There’s not much difference between the two, but the second is closer to a woman that has been culturally indoctrinated to believe it’s acceptable to engage in marriage for money. If you consider what so many Thai women think, it seems a large group of Thai women seem to come from such a background. Perhaps it’s a combination of prostitution in Thai history, poor education in areas like Isaan, materialism, greed, laziness, and Thai Buddhism’s lack of strong rebuke for minor wives and prostitution (it opposes prostitution in theory but fails to implement this in society). In any case, removing money from the marriage filters out these poor marriage candidates.

There is another pattern among the successful marriages. The guy doesn’t accept crappy treatment from his wife. He won’t let her run around in temper tantrums. He won’t treat her like a baby, giving her money or gifts to pacify her. He won’t constantly excuse, overlook, or pretend to forget her infidelities, lies, hostilities, etc. Western women are often called aggressive or non-feminine because they demand to be treated like a woman and respected as an equal in their marriages. Well, it’s interesting that so many men that criticize their Western women will allow themselves to be treated disrespectfully by their Thai wives. If farang women have become as men, then farang men have become pussies. How feminine is a woman that can’t respect her husband and his masculinity? Worse yet, how much of a man is someone that allows a small little Thai woman to abuse him mentally, financially, and even physically?

Don’t let a Thai girl make you pay for your marriage to her. Don’t let her push you around. You’d be amazed how effective these two things are in filtering out the undesirable Thai women. I really wonder how many Isaan girls, bargirls, or even Thai women would be married to Westerners if farangs learned to apply these two filters? <This is SUCH good advice – Stick>

There was one anonymous submission (dated May 17, 2004) that proposes Thai women require a 50% money (financial security), 50% love situation in order for a relationship to work. That may sound reasonable, but it really isn’t. Just exactly how many of the same Thai women will tell stories of Thai men they have married who didn’t work, didn’t support them, and didn’t even love them? Do you honestly think all these marriages really ended? No, I don’t think they have. Many have, and many “appear” to have ended from what farangs are told, but in fact, I both suspect and have observed that many of these marriages do continue to exist and survive. These are relationships where the 50% requirement for money is clearly not met by the Thai man. Perhaps Thai women keep a Thai man to meet the 50% love requirement, while “marrying” the farang man to meet her 50% financial requirement!

There was a third submission dated May 17, 2004, from Phil Ross, that suggests Thai TV may contribute or even save a Thai farang relationship, where the Thai girl moves overseas. On the surface this sounds very reasonable. However, from what I’ve seen myself and the shared experiences of other Westerners in relationships with Thai women, Thai TV is actually a detriment to such relationships. It lets the girl stay intact in her “little Thai world”, instead of going about the difficult task of integrating into Western culture. If you want to form a real relationship with a Thai woman, it’s the same as with any woman. The two of you need to talk. That isn’t happening when one partner’s idea of making his wife happy entails feeding her, entertaining her on the tube, and recreating her culture in a “little Thailand”. While immigrants usually need to stay in contact with their culture and homeland, for a Thai-farang relationship to work, the Thai person needs to actually try to understand farang (i.e. Western) culture. That means watching Western TV, reading Western newspapers, having non-Thai friends (immigrant or Western), eating Western food, and getting used to the Western world.

Part III

As the anonymous poster suggested, perhaps we don’t hear from those in successful AND happy relationships much. I wonder how many successful relationships, where both partners actually live together in a 24×7 situation, actually involves the Thai woman not making a real effort to adjust to “farang ways”?

If you argue successful means you are still together, or where the farang constants “accepts” all Thai “shortcomings” (including the complete lack of consideration and personal self-absorption Thai woman “may” have, and their complete lack of interest in learning Western culture) and gives the Thai girl everything, then sure, there may be many “successful” unions. Otherwise, the idea that Thai-farang relationships are paradise, highly successful, and better odds than a farang-farang relationship is just a dream.

If your idea of a successful marriage is a happy marriage, where both partners are giving and taking from the union, then I find it quite doubtful this approach of accepting all their weaknesses, giving them everything they want or need and “accepting” all their “problems”, and recreating “little Thailand” in the West really works. Of the few “happy marriages” I personally know of, the girl in every case made an effort to adjust. That often includes working (a great way to “give” in a marriage, and also a great way to integrate and learn about her new Western nation’s culture). Of course, the husband (a farang) also tries to be fair in helping with genuine needs, family problems, etc., but it needs to be balanced against the Thai wife’s contribution to the relationship and the validity of her desires. In the case where the wife works, does the husband really even need to address the family “problems” that accompany Thai wives so often? Not necessarily. Does she help with your financial family problems?

I’ll close with a real story reflecting on the reality of money in a marriage. I have two friends. One American married a South American lady, whom everyone told him was only looking for his money and a green card. He put all his money in a joint bank account, sponsored her, and let her demand everything from him. She started working once she got her work permit, made more than him, still took more than she put into the joint accounts, made him pay all the bills including her credit cards, and now they are divorced. He lost big time.

My other friend married an American of South American decent / European decent. My second friend has no joint accounts with his wife. She works and spends her own money on her own things. She makes much less than the green card-seeking girl above. She also makes much less than her husband (my second friend), so he pays for housing and utilities out of sheer necessity. He pays for nothing else and she asks for nothing else. He is still married and happy. Nobody thought she was after his money when they got engaged. She was clearly after him, marriage, kids, and a family…the manipulative chick! She had the audacity to marry him for the only valid reasons for getting married, the shock of it! To actually see a woman not marry a guy for “financial security”, to not demand a dowry, to not expect all her entertainment and allowance to be paid for!

Neither guys married Thais. Neither women were Thai. The common pattern and important lesson I see here is, “Find a wife that actually wants you and not your money. Find a wife that is willing to share her income. Don’t put all your money on the table financially, as this will only make it more likely for a gold-digger to become your wife. Worse yet, it may sour your wife into a gold-digger who loves your money more than you!”

Stickman says:

Wow, what a fantastic piece. I REALLY enjoyed reading this and I could not agree more. This piece should be compulsory reading for any guy who is interested in marrying a Thai woman.

Ever the cynic that I am, I have to re-iterate something I have been staying for a while. I know VERY few Thai / farang marriages where he (the farang) is genuinely happy. VERY few.

nana plaza