The Problem With Thai Women Part 1
Those of you who followed me several years ago when I was a regular contributor on here are probably scratching your heads in disbelief about now. After all, wasn't I the guy who was always defending Thai/Western relationships? Well, not exactly. In fact even back then I often said that Thai women probably make the least suitable partners for western men of all Asians. The problem is I just can't stand it when people make blanket assumptions about entire populations of people and when they do I inevitably feel compelled to call them out on it. So I guess you could say that what I was really defending in my writing back then was open-mindedness and rational thought – something we unfortunately just don’t see a lot of in this type of forum.
That’s not to say that there are not still plenty of unbiased, well written, and intelligent submission on here, because there are. But there is also still a lot of negativity and narrow mindedness which, sadly, often manifests itself in the form of race bashing, culture bashing, or lifestyle bashing. How many times have we heard comments like “ALL western women are fat demanding hags” or “ALL Thai bar girls are lying deceitful scammers” or “ALL guys who fall in love with bar girls are losers”, etc, etc. It never ceases to amaze me how human beings can come to certain “concrete” conclusions about a group of millions of people based simply on their own limited experiences with a few members of said group.
For instance we’ve all heard our share of women complain that “all men are pigs“. Naturally most of them are half joking when they say this but many others are dead serious. So basically, as insane as it sounds, these women are coming to the conclusion that some three billion people on the planet are all jerks simply based on their personal experiences with 5 or 10 guys who have screwed them over at some point. Of course, even if these 10 guys were a random sampling of the male population their behavior would still not be statistically relevant in determining the general mindset or behavior of the group as a whole.
And of course there is nothing random about who we date. Women (or men) who always date jerks who end up hurting them, always know from day one, at least on a subconscious level, that these guys will end up treating them like dirt. In fact, believe it or not, this is actually what compels them to be with these men in the first place.
Many of us go through these kinds of self-destructive dating patterns, but rather than admitting this to ourselves and taking responsibility for it, we just decide that ALL men must be assholes, or ALL women must be cold hearted man eating bitches. And making generalization about a particular race is no different. And this can relate somewhat similarly to how we see people from other cities, states, or countries. A person can go to New York City for example and based on as little as one or two bad experiences will decide with absolute certainty that New Yorkers are all rude.
I remember about 7 years ago while sitting in a McDonalds in Pattaya this obvious newbie attempted to strike up a conversation with me. He was this pudgy, unkempt, socially awkward young American kid and as we spoke I realized that his personality was just as off-putting as his appearance. I asked him how he liked Thailand and he said it was okay but that he didn’t like how rude Thai people were and he asked me how I could stand it. My reply was that I didn’t know what he was talking about and that I had never had any such problems or experiences in all my trips to Thailand.
His comments didn’t really surprise me because people of his personality type always have a very skewed perspective on life. Not only do they imagine that people are treating them worse than they actually are but they also tend to draw real life negative situations to themselves. Very insecure people are always going to see in a situation what they expect to see (what they fear). They are also more likely to encounter real life situations that really are as bad as what they expect. Of course in this guy's case he probably feels that people don’t treat him well in his own country either, and he expected that by comparison he would be treated extra special. Then he felt let down by the fact that every Thai he encountered wasn’t full of Smiles and thrilled to see him and he mistook this lack of interest for rudeness.
Its also true that the way we view people or situations is often colored by our own preconceived notions. In fact, I sometimes think that most human being are little more than a big sack of meat and preconceived notions. If you were to travel through Europe, for example, I’m sure it wouldn’t be to terribly difficult to find a few people there who, either openly or secretly, dislike Americans and have some rather strange misconceptions about them. This dislike, by the way, usually stems from resentment, and the reason for this resentment, weather they realize it or not, is that the USA has always taken a leadership role world affairs (imposing its will on others, many would say) and people just always resent a self-imposed leader. Just think back to Elementary school and how you felt about the hall monitors or the teachers pets. You probably resented the hell out of them, even though, in truth, they were probably perfectly nice people. And of course if you are an American from the Midwest or the South you likely resent Californians or New Yorkers for the same reason. And if you live in Southern California you think all Northern Californians are a bunch of ultra-liberal hipster nut jobs. And the Northern Californians think us Southern Californians are a bunch of shallow, superficial, Barbie and Ken dolls who spend half our lives in the gym and the other half in our cars. And Television shows like “The Hills” and “Keeping Up With The Kardashians” certainly don’t do much to dispel these stereotypes.
So pretty much wherever find yourself in the world, someone, somewhere, is going to dislike you simply by your association with the particular piece of real estate you happen to have landed on when you popped out of your mother womb. In fact I’ll occasionally still run into some old fart who hates the Japanese because their ancestors bombed Peal Harbor. If that’s not irrational then I don’t know what is.
The point is that whenever you meet a new person for the first time you should always see him as he actually is and not let your preconceived notions or your past bad experiences with people of similar backgrounds (nationality, race, etc.) cloud your judgment. Nor should you make assumptions about the whole group based on your experiences with a few individuals.
That being said, it should be pretty clear that I wont be doing any Thai bashing here today, despite the suggestiveness of the title. Also I should point out that my reasons for cooling off to Thai women as of late has nothing to do with any of the usual complaints we hear about ad nauseam on here. In fact I can honestly say that in the 20 plus years that I’ve been coming to Thailand (all told nearly 2 years in country) I’ve never really had anyone cheat me or take advantage of me in any way – not even back in the days when I was still soliciting bar girls on occasion.
Speaking of which, I should probably also point out that the reason I have had so few problems with Bar Girls over the years is not because I’m extremely lucky, or because most of them are just swell people; its because I screen the girls very carefully before taking them out. I’ve just always had an uncanny ability to size people up very quickly and very accurately, and Thai bar girls are no exception. Bottom line; if I don’t find a good one on a particular day then I just go home alone.
I did break this rule once though and bar-fined a go-go girl who I knew from the get go was seriously bad news. But her body was just so amazing that, against my better judgment, I took a chance and she ended up ditching me before we could even have sex – probably to score drugs. Still I cant really say I was taken advantage of since I knew exactly what I was getting into with her from the start. And lets face it, all I lost was some of my time and the price of the bar fine and a couple of drinks.
Also I have to say that I’ve never had a bar girl I’ve been seeing ask, or even hint, that I should buy her anything – not even the ones who I was in a relationship with and was therefore not paying to be with me.
I have however occasionally had regular Thai girls drop such hints (students, office ladies, etc.). Lets face it, some Thai girls just think a boyfriend is a walking ATM. I remember one Bangkok office girl in particular who on our third date hinted that I should buy her a 6000 Baht pair of designer sunglasses. To put this in perspective, just imagine that a girl you are dating in your own country hints that you should buy her something that cost more than half her monthly salary, and on the third date no less. I’m guessing there would probably not be a fourth date. Of course, even if I didn’t mind buying her something that expensive I would never pay the much for a stupid pair of sunglasses.
The trouble with Bangkok office girls is that they work long hours for little pay, yet they live in a city where they are surrounded by all these expensive department stores selling luxury items that are far beyond their reach, or the reach of most Thais for that matter. Needless to say they eventually feel they must have these things, and some see a rich boyfriend as the only way to do so. Still, most Thai girls I’ve dated have not asked me to buy them things or give them any money even after living together for many months. Of course I always pay for all our food and travel expenses.
As for bar girls, ironically the only really bad bar girl type experience I ever had was in the Philippines many years ago. I say “ironically” because I’ve never actually done the bar girl thing in the Philippines – never even been to Angeles City. I would always just meet nice, normal, cute Filipinas online and then take them to Boracay for a week (6 times so far – Boracay is amazing).
Nevertheless, I did get into trouble one night in the Makati section of Manila. I was walking back to my hotel late at night when these three rather homely looking young girls approached me and started asking me questions. I didn’t know what they were selling or what their game was and I didn’t really care at the time because I was really tired that night and just wanted to get back to the room and sleep. Unfortunately though, despite my obvious lack of interest, they followed me all the way back to my hotel and once there they just keep insisting that I not go in yet. They just wanted to keep talking to me, they said, and they were acting so nice and sweet that I just couldn’t bring myself to be rude and just walk off – being a nice guy will get you into trouble every time. Still I desperately wanted to lay down and relax in my room so I finally relented and invited them on up for a while after first making it abundantly clear that we were NOT going to have sex and I was NOT going to give them any money. Not that they ever mentioned sex or money because they didn’t. I was really hoping they just wanted to get off the street for a while and relax in a nice room and have some good conversation. Anyway after about ten minutes in the room they said they wanted to take a shower and I said that was fine but I wanted to take one first. Unfortunately I didn’t lock the bathroom door and they all came in after me, got undressed and jumped into the shower with me. Naturally I didn’t think this would get me into any trouble since I had absolutely no sexual attraction for any of them. Then, as if my lack of interest in them was not already strong enough, one of them urinated in the shower right in front of me – nothin' like standing in a pool of some girls urine to get a guy turned on, am I right guys? Needless to say there was no physical contact between us.
After showering we talked for another 30 minutes before I told them that I had to get to sleep and that they would have to go. That’s when things began to get nasty. First one of the girls nicely asked for 300 pesos for taxi fare to get home, and even though I knew this was bullshit I eventually agreed figuring it was a small price to pay to get rid of them. And that would have been the end of it, but then she said that her friends each needed the same amount. This really ticked me off because now it was painfully obvious that they were trying to take advantage of me and so I could no longer pretend to myself that I was just doing a nice thing for someone. So, although I remained calm and friendly, I also refused to give them any more money and this is when the first girl – the ring leader apparently – went totally ballistic and started screaming bloody murder and threatening me. She said I owed them money because I saw them naked and that if I didn’t pay she would call the police (I didn’t bother to tell her that I actually found their naked bodies mildly repulsive). Eventually I called the front desk to send someone up to help get rid of the girls and I have to say the guy they sent up handled things very professionally. Long story short, after several more minute of screaming we got them to leave but the girl insisted she would be returning with the police. I knew this was probably a bluff of course but in truth I was a bit nervous. I don’t know about you but the Philippine police scare me a hell of a lot more than the Thai police. I’ve heard stories of Filipinos being executed in dark alleyways by police officers, and I know of at least one American who had a policemen stick a gun in his face and threatened to execute him. Needless to say it was hard to get to sleep that night and I could not completely relax until I caught my plane the next morning.
Sure, it would have been easy to have just paid them the money and been done with it, but the problem is I just refuse to submit to intimidation tactics. In fact whenever someone tries to blackmail me, extort money from me, or intimidate me in any way, it has the exact opposite the intended effect. I am just so fiercely opposed to giving in to these types of scare tactics that I would rather go to jail than give an inch. And I don’t care if it ends up costing me ten times more money to avoid paying them than it would have cost me just to pay them off. That’s just the way I am. Its not about the money, it’s the principle of the thing. In fact if these girls had just come up to me and told me they were in desperate need of money and asked nicely for my help I might have given it too them.
In any case, inviting these girls up to my room was something uncharacteristically stupid for me to do. And I can’t even make the excuse that my hormones were clouding my judgment in this case because I didn’t find any of them even remotely sexually attractive.
I should probably also mention at this point that I stopped dating Filipinas in the Philippines a long time ago and there are several reasons for this. First off, there are just far more scammers online from the Philippines than from any other country in Asia, and its just way too time consuming weeding out all the bad ones to find the occasional good one. (although I’ll admit this may just be due to the fact that there are far more Filipinas online period than there are other Asians). Secondly, I just don’t find girls in the Philippines to be as attractive on average as Thai women. In fact, I can remember many days walking through crowded shopping malls in Manila crammed with tens of thousands of young Filipinas and not seeing a single one with a face and body that did anything for me. If I go to Siam Square on the other hand I will always see at least one or two girls I think are somewhat attractive and have nice bodies. Heck, even the department store mannequins in Manila don’t seem to have as nice a shape as those in Bangkok.
Lets face it, if you want to find a hot Filipina these days you have to go to California, Hawaii or Vancouver. In fact the hottest Filipina I ever laid my eyes on while in the Philippines was actually a long time resident of Canada (15 years) and was just in the Philippines to visit family. She caught my eye shortly after I arrived at the airport in Manila to catch a flight home and luckily I was able to strike up a conversation with her and get her e-mail address before she had to catch her own flight, and we eventually started dating. And of course I've dated my share of Filipinas here in California as well.
By the way I’m not trying to knock the Philippines or Filipinas in any way. I’m just expressing my own personal preferences. I’ve actually met a lot of incredibly nice people in the Philippines, both men and women, and the country itself can be very beautiful. I should also point out that most Filipinas speak nearly perfect English, are very hard working and loyal, and will adjust to life in a foreign country much more readily than the average Thai woman. Basically they just make better wives for western men in general than Thais do.
Getting back to the Thai bar girl thing though, there are many self-proclaimed “experts” on here who will tell you that as a westerner you can never truly know the mind of a bar girl – or even most regular Thai girls for that matter. And they’re not entirely wrong. After all, a lot of bar girls do have many complex layers to them which have to be peeled back one at a time in order to reveal the real person hiding underneath. The top layer is the side they show to their customers and their “boyfriends”. Then there is the side they show to the other bar girls and their friends – which is not always the real person either. That’s right, they are sometimes putting on a show for their co-worker as well. For example if a bar girl should fall for one of her customers she will not always tell the other girls how she really feels about him because she does not want to be ridiculed and called a fool for giving it away for free. So instead she says she’s just playing him and is not serious, even if that’s not the case.
Anyway, if you somehow manage to peel back that final layer that’s when you’ll find the real person. Unfortunately, sometimes when a girl has been in the sex industry too long she actually becomes the part she is playing and then there is no “real“ person left to uncover. You can see something similar to this here in the USA with people who work as cops or prison guards. Having that kind of power over others eventually turns some of them permanently into major assholes. And in this same vein, working in the sex industry can permanently change people in a bad way. Still this does not happen to everyone and sometimes even the most seemingly hard core of bar girls still has a heart buried somewhere deep down inside.
A good example of this would be a bar girl I know who we’ll just call Lisa (obviously not her real name). She was actually one of the first bar girls I met when I started making more frequent trips to Thailand at the turn of the Millennium. Lisa worked at a small bar in Pattaya along with her sister, Pam (also not her real name), and although very petite, what she lacked in size she made up for in bravado. She was just a very loud, boisterous and borderline abrasive person. She could also be very intimidating at times. In fact I remember I once introduced her to a Thai girl I was dating at the time (a conservative college student) and after we left the bar my date said “that girl really scares me“, to which I just laughed. It would also become apparent over time that Lisa was the queen bee of this particular establishment. And although the other girls seemed to all be on very friendly terms with her I also got he impression that she was about the last person they would ever want to cross her.
Anyway, after several days of roaming around Pattaya I came to the conclusion that Lisa and her sister were pretty much the cream of the crop and I made up my mind to take one of them out for the night. But which one? Both girls were cute and sexy and had great bodies. Ultimately I would chose Pam though.
Pam was pretty much the polar opposite of her sister. She was quiet and soft spoken and usually kept to herself – not that she was the least bit shy or lacking in confidence. She just didn’t seem to have any interest in what was going on around her and would usually just sit back and read magazines or books while at work. In fact I never saw her flirt with anyone and she rarely played games with customers. Of course with her looks I guess she felt she really didn’t need to sell herself. She could just sit back and wait for someone to pay her bar fine and she didn’t really seem to care one way or the other. And although many men have probably fallen under her spell she is about the last bar girl in the world that would ever fall in love with a customer – neither would she pretend to. In fact I find it hard to imagine her falling in love with anyone. She just doesn’t seem like someone who needs people in general or has much use for them. Still she is a fairly good person so I can’t see her ever screwing anyone over either. Of course it was not her personality that drew me to her that first night. She just had this beautiful, angelic face that you could spend an eternity gazing at.
So, Pam it would be. I knew that she only did short time of course, which I would normally never agree to, but in her case I was willing to make an exception. Now from this point you would think it would have pretty much been a done deal. Unfortunately, certain forces were conspiring against me that night. When Pam went off to gather her things to go, she became engaged in a discussion with her sister, who was about to go out with a group of guys. I knew that these guys were looking to take out several other girls at the same time and, even though I don’t speak Thai, I could tell from the two girls body language that Lisa was trying to convince Pam to ditch me and come with her and the other guys instead. Pam refuse several times but Lisa just kept pounding away at her relentlessly until she finally relented in a moment of intense frustration just to get her sister to shut up. Sure enough one of the other girls came up to me and said that Pam could not go with me, as I watched her, Lisa and one other girl walk off with the group of guys. Needless to say I was absolutely furious. After all, it had taken me two days to decide on a suitable companion and now that I had, and was moments away from heaven on earth, it had suddenly been snatched from me at the last second. I couldn’t believe that Lisa was screwing me over like this and I remember at the time I felt nothing but searing hatred for her.
Eventually of course I was able to take Pam out (the next day I think) and as time passed I eventually warmed up to Lisa again as well. In fact on the last night of my stay in Pattaya I took her out for the night.
As we left the bar to head back to my place I noticed that she was very quite and serious rather then her usual jovial boisterous self. Still I was happy to be with her that night, even though as it turned out she was not exactly the most intimate girl I’ve ever slept with. In fact she was the only bar girl I’ve ever been with in my life who would not kiss me. Still we remained in a warm embrace (spooned) the entire night as we slept, and there was something that just felt right about it. And for some reason, despite all evidence to the contrary, I had a strange feeling that she felt the exact same way.
The next morning when we got up she still had that grumpy look about her. In fact she almost had a scowl on her face. Still, she didn’t seem to be in a big hurry to leave either, so I tried to make small talk. At some point in the conversation the topic of relationships came up, at which point she insisted, quite adamantly, that she didn’t need anyone in her life – and she kind of went on an on about it. She was protesting just a little too much and I remember thinking at the time “just who are you trying to convince?“ because I certainly wasn’t buying it. It was instantly apparent to me that underneath that gruff mean-girl exterior was just a scared little girl who was terrified of being hurt. She had built up this huge and impenetrable wall around herself to insure that nobody would ever get close enough to hurt her. I have met these types of women before in my own country of course, and usually when I do I run as fast and far as I can. The problem is, these women will always put you through endless and exhaustive trials before they will let their guard down and let you in. And even when they finally do, and even if you love them unconditionally, they will still always throw a monkey wrench in the works. In other words, they will always sabotage the relationship. Needless to say, should you ever fall in love with one of these women you are letting yourself in for a world of hurt. You might as well just save yourself the time and trouble and just pick up a hammer and start hitting yourself repeatedly in the head with it. The end result is the same either way.
In any case, eventually my car came to take me back to Bangkok and Lisa followed me dutifully down to reception to check out, and then to the waiting car. Then we said our good byes and off I went, and as the car drove away there was something about the way she stood there watching me leave that told me that my instincts had been right and that she had indeed developed an emotional attachment to me.
On subsequent trip to Thailand I would always stop by Lisa’s bar first whenever I was in Pattaya. It was kind of my home away from home and I liked the Mama-san and all the girls. Still I would never take Lisa out because of her intimacy issue (I need to kiss before sex). Over the years though it became more and more apparent how she felt about me, even though she would never dare show it on the surface. I could even see it in the eyes of the other girls whenever I came around. I could tell they all new how exactly she felt. In fact, when I eventually decided I wanted to bar-fine some of the other girls in the bar, years after I first met Lisa, they would always refuse and make up some lame excuse. But I knew what was really going on. It was because I was strictly off limits. Pam was the only one willing to see me, but even so I had to call her on her mobile and have her meet me somewhere, rather than coming to the bar.
In any case this weird thing Lisa and I had between us went on for years. Then one day during my first really long Stay in Pattaya I came by her bar and she was acting very strange. She began talking very softly and very sweetly to me. This was so out of character for her that at first I thought she must be sick and I was tempted to feel her forehead to check for a high fever. Then I realized that she was actually just making an real effort to drop the façade and allow herself to be vulnerable for the first time. She also started talking about how we she go out to dinner sometime. Of course this was fine with me as I did actually care deeply for her. The problem is she would never just do it right then and there. She would make a time for later when I could came back and meet her, but of course she would always stand me up. And even though on an analytical level I knew she was just sabotaging things between us, my insecurities would kick in and I would get pissed off at her for standing me up. This happened several times I think and eventually I just got tired of it. She could just never let herself be happy.
Eventually though I developed strong feeling for another bar girl (story coming up below) who kicked me to the curb and I stumbled into Lisa bar drunk off my ass one night. I rarely ever drink and I never get drunk, even if I’m upset, so this was unusual for me. Anyway I guess it was obvious from whatever I said in my drunken stupor that I had feelings for this other girl and Lisa heard all of this. The next day she was back to her old self and she just tried to pretend I was not there. Then, less than a week later I came in and she was with this young good looking Aussie kid and she was apparently going to go traveling with him for New Years and even take him to visit her family. I knew this was for my benefit because she’s never done anything like this since I've known her. He seemed like a really nice guy though so I was kind of happy for her in a way.
Eventually I tried to have a conversation with her about everything but she was being really pissy and would not even look at me. Now when people feel hurt they tend to lash out and say hurtful things to those who hurt them, and Lisa was a true expert and knowing just what to say to hurt someone. Long story short, she said or did something that got me so angry that I told her to delete my number from her phone and NEVER try to contact me again as long as she lives. Then I deleted her number from my phone right in front of her and walked off. Yes it was a rather childish thing to do but we all blow our tops every once in a while.
Naturally I would come to regret what I had said and done but there was no going back – and lets face it there was never going to be any happy ending for us anyway. Still I will always care very deeply for her and I will always hope that she finds true happiness in her life someday. Underneath it all she really is good person with a good heart.
So, those of you who think Thai bar girls don’t have real feelings, or don’t occasionally even fall in love like normal people, don't know them as well as you think. I’ve personally had 3 of them fall extremely hard for me and there were 4 or 5 others who were emotionally attached to me to varying degrees. I have also know a few who have fallen very hard for other western men.
The problem of course is that they almost always fall in love with guys who don’t share their feelings, and the guys invariably take advantage of this fact to get free sex from them. So, the guys fall for bar girls who don’t love them back, and the bar girls fall for guys who don’t love them back, and in both cases one person is usually taking advantage of the other. Unfortunately its just extremely rare for both parties to be on the same page. In other words, its rare for a bar girl to fall in love with one of the guys who has fallen for her and visa versa. They DO fall in love though.
And lets not forget that at one time or another ALL bar girls were just ordinary Thai women. They are not born into it and they are not some special class of human being. In fact I’ve observed quite a few Thai women making the transition into being a bar girl, or at least attempting to. Some transition incredibly easily while others feel intense guilt over it at first but they also feel they have no choice. In fact I'm reminded of one girl in particular who was trying to break into the business.
I first saw her when she started working at the Supermarket near my place in Jomtien. Every time I would come in and see her in the isle she would give me a very warm smile and I could tell from her body language that she was interested in me. I never bothered to strike up a conversation with her though because she just seemed way too conservative for my tastes. Then one night around midnight I saw her on Walking Street. When she noticed me she immediately looked shocked and tried to pretend she didn’t see me. I could tell that she was just deeply ashamed for me to see her there because of what I might think. Of course her level of guilt and shame also suggested that she actually was there to do something that she would be ashamed of. I eventually got her to sit down with me on the beach but she was so nervous that I could not even get her to look directly at me. When I asked her what brought her to Walking Street she skirted the question and just started telling me how miserably poor her family was back home and how she had moved to Pattaya to try and make some money, which I found rather telling. After all nobody leaves their family behind and moves halfway across the country to Pattaya simply to work in a supermarket. She was trying to let me know what she was doing without actually having to come right out and say it. I figured she was probably planning on hanging out near the beach that night to hopefully be picked up by some man, and from the way she was acting I had a feeling that this was her first attempt. I thought about trying to take her home myself since I figured it might be easier for her to start off with someone she likes. But then I realized that this might actually be harder for her. In any case, she was so intensely nervous, uncomfortable, and anxiety filled around me in this particular situation that it was starting to make me uncomfortable as well. So eventually I just said good night and we went our separate ways. I never saw her again after that day, either on walking street or in the market, so I’m not sure what ultimately became of her.
I’m sure there are some out there reading this right now who think I should not even be bringing up the positive aspects of Bar Girls because they think this might just give false hope to all those lovesick gullible chumps out there, but nothing could be further from the truth. The fact of the matter is, no matter what I say on here the chumps will always be chumps and the cynics will always be cynics. This is because both of these types see only what they want to see rather than what’s really there. Well, to be more precise, the cynics see what they expect to see and the chumps see what they desperately need to see. Make no mistake though, they are both walking around with their own unique set of blinders on.
Speaking of which, I can no longer even bring myself to read submissions from guys who think they are in love with a bar girl and who want to know if we think she is on the level or not. In almost every case we can tell with nearly 100% certainty simply from what he’s written about her that he is being played and that he is just too blinded by love to see the obvious. And the truth is, if you have to ask the question then you probably already know the answer but just refuse to let yourself believe it. This is why I usually never contact any of these people with advice – because I know that whatever I tell them they are still going believe what they want to believe.
Anyway, to those who say you can never truly know a bar girl, or any Thai girl, I say; how can we ever know anyone? Lets face it, even here in the west people don’t always show you who they really are. We have men who pretend to like women more than they really do in order to feed their own insatiable sexual desires. We have women who pretend to love a man just for his money or status. And if you are a rock star or a famous actor how can you ever really be sure that your partner loves you for who you are and not just for your celebrity persona. That’s probably why celebrities usually only date other celebrities. And of course many of us don’t even like our friends that much but we still hang out with them because of what they can give us, or because we figure that any friends are better than no friends at all. In other words, many of us have friends of convenience.
Case in point, when I was living in Tokyo I had a British friend (or “English” if that’s more politically correct these days) who I would go out clubbing with every weekend and, even though we always had fun going out drinking, talking, and picking up girls, I always suspected that I was just a friend of convenience for him. You see my friend was a banker and a member of the British upper class, and most of the other Brits living in Japan then were lower middle class or even working class chaps, and since apparently the classes don’t mix socially he didn't have many friends there from his own country. He never actually told me this but as soon as he opened his mouth it was pretty obvious that he had a public school education so it wasn’t hard to figure out the situation he was in (To my fellow American readers I should point out that public schools in England are what we call private schools here).
I remember once I invited him to a big party at my house and when the other English guest found out that I had invited a banker they said with considerable distain that “bankers equals wankers”. Needless to say the different classes never interacted that night and in fact they just tried to pretend that the other did not exist.
In any case, the night my friend first approached me and struck up a conversation with me he was probably thinking that since I’m a fairly attractive and confident looking guy I would make a good wingman for picking up girls at the clubs (unlike me he hated to go out alone). And since I’m an American I was exempt from the whole British class system nonsense.
We eventually both went back to our own countries of course and not long after that I confirmed what I already knew by giving him a call (this was before e-mail existed). It was pretty obvious from his tone that he had no interest in remaining friends now that he was back home and now that knowing me no longer served any purpose. And should I ever find myself in London I'm sure he wouldn't be that keen on showing me around the city or introducing me to his friends. Still we had some really good times together while it lasted.
So, how exactly is any of this any different from having some genuinely great times, or even a long term relationship, with a Thai woman who may, or may not, be with you partially because of your money? The answer is, its not. Its exactly the same thing. I guess the reason these things don’t bother me as much as they do everyone else is because no matter who I’m dating, and in whatever country, I always know exactly what percentage of her interest in me is practical (monetary, etc.) and what percentage is based on emotional, intellectual, or physical attraction. And as long as the practical part amounts to less than about 50% I’m fine with it. And lets not forget that up until fairly recently in mans history pretty much all marriages were based purely on practical considerations and not on love or compatibility – well, maybe compatibility of social status.
As for my English friend, its probably better that the friendship came to an end when it did because we were very different people. Lets face it, public school types can be a bit reserved (translation: stuffy), while I on the other hand am a very outgoing, exuberant, “take the bull by the horns” sort of guy who always says what’s on his mind. And although my friend never said anything about this, and he was careful to masks his true feelings, I always felt as if he looked down on me somewhat for being so open, honest, and expressive. Its almost as if he believed that opening up too much, or being too unrestrained in expressing ones thoughts, is somehow a crass or uncivilized thing to do.
Here in the States I’m actually considered to be a fairly intelligent, articulate, and diplomatic guy so its sometimes hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that certain members of British society might actually view me in the same light that I might view an uneducated back-woods hillbilly over here, but apparently this is sometimes the case.
In any case my friend always seemed very subdued and I can’t even imagine him showing any real emotion or passion about anything. In fact , I imagine if he were to get his arm chopped off he would probably just calmly and matter-of-factly say something like “Oh dear…, I seem to have lost my arm”. In any case, I think I now know how Captain Kirk feels when he goes out for a drink with Mr. Spock.
By the way, I realize I’m taking an inexorably long time to get to the supposed point of this little gab-fest but I feel I would be remiss in my duties if I were not to take this opportunity to point out some of the silly things that Thais have said in this forum.
For example one guy said something to the effect that, only a very specific type of Thai woman will date foreigners, and he even implied that these women are not “real” Thai women. First of all what’s a “real” Thai woman? And secondly, who the fxxx cares? Either she’s the girl you want or she’s not, and that’s all that should matter. Yet some people love to rub in the rather dubious fact that we foreigners are not getting the cream of the crop, so to speak, and never will. Really? Well, all I can say is that I have personally dated Thai women with university degrees in extremely difficult subjects and who were from very good families, so I don’t know how much more real you can get than that. And if this guy is trying to say that I cannot date a proper, ultra-conservative, uptight Thai woman then I say; that’s fine by me. I have always preferred Thai women who were more westernized and open-minded anyway.
Incidentally, proper Thai girls are not always as wholesome as you might think. I have dated two separate educated Thai girls from good backgrounds who admitted to engaging in some sexual experimentation with other girls in their school days – and one of these girls was from a very wealthy family. Needless to say neither one of these two girl were exactly what you would call shy when it came to sex. In fact they were both borderline nymphomaniacs.
The other silly thing that Thais say is that Farang men only go out with “ugly” Thai women – as if this statement is somehow supposed to reflect negatively upon us. The truth is it actually reflects negatively upon them, and for a variety of reasons. First of all anyone who thinks that beauty is anything other than an individual opinion, or who thinks that their idea of beauty is somehow more valid than anyone else’s is a fool, plain and simple. And secondly we all know that the Thai peoples view of beauty and ugliness is just an extension of their elitist mentality. In other words, their feelings of superiority over their darker skinned cousins has over time shaped their ideal of what’s beautiful and what’s not. And the Thai media of course only reinforces this very narrow view of beauty by only showing us people who exactly conform to this standard of beauty (how many actresses or models do you know who are of Isaan descent?).
Anyway, although I love Thailand and its people this is the one aspect of their society that I just cant stomach. And the really sad and ironic part of this elitist mentality is that it negatively affects all of society not just the poor and ethnically undesirable. After all, who do you think is buying all that skin damaging face whitening cream? Its probably not the Isaan girls. It’s more likely Bangkok girls who are terrified of being mistaken for a low class Thai.
I’ve known about this stuff for twenty years of course but the point really got driven home to me the last time I was in Bangkok with my last Thai girlfriend. It was around Christmas time and she had dragged me down to the Siam Square area without letting me go home and change my clothes first and naturally I hate going to nice parts of the city wearing only shorts and a T-shirt. I remember it was a December night and everyone was impeccable dressed, including my girlfriend, which made me feel extremely uncomfortable, but when I mentioned this fact to her she just said that nobody cared because I was a foreigner. She said if anyone had to worry about what people thought it was her. Then she pulled me aside and sat me down for a serious talk in which she proceeded to explain to me how much pressure Thai society puts on women to look and act like they have the proper pedigree. She even admitted to me that when she meets other Thais she always tells them that she is from Chiang Mai even though, as we both know, her home town is actually Lampang, which is a 45 minute drive from Chiang Mai. I found this rather surprising considering the fact that she is about the last person in the world that anyone would ever mistake for being an Isaan girl or someone of low class. I also found it rather ironic that she felt she could be honest with westerners from day one but has to lie to her fellow Thais. We spent about 10 minutes talking on this subject and I could really sense in her voice the intense pressure she has felt her entire life to measure up to the image of being a “proper” Thai girl from a good background. It seems that everyone is constantly worried that someone might view them as being a lower class Thai, and this worry is so pervasive and intense that it has actually created a rather oppressive environment for everyone.
This can also often make people rather defensive. In fact I learned long ago to be careful about asking a girl in Bangkok where she is originally from. In Los Angeles or New York this is just a normal question and a way of making conversation since people you meet in these types of big cities are generally from somewhere else originally. Ask a girl this same question in Bangkok however and she might get defensive and even angry, as if you are trying to imply something negative about her by asking.
I can’t help but be reminded of the first Thai girl I ever slept with back in 1990 and how she spoke with such pride about the fact that her family had been in Bangkok for many, many generations. I didn’t really understand at the time why this should be such a big deal but it didn’t take me long to catch on.
And as much as I hate to admit it, this Thai elitist mentality has even effected my own taste in Thai women to a certain extent. For example I long ago started dating mostly light skinned Thai women, preferably from good backgrounds. I also have to admit that I actually liked that fact that my last two Thai girlfriends often received compliments on their beauty from Thai men and women. I just really liked the fact that they were not only very beautiful to me but were also very beautiful by Thai standards. This shouldn’t matter to me at all, yet for some reason it kind of does now. I guess I’ve just spent too much time in Thailand. Still I could spend the rest of my life there and I would still never look down upon people based on the color of their skin or where they are from.
But enough about that. This submission is supposed to be about why I no longer have much interest in dating Thai women. Before I get into that though I suppose I should probably explain what drew me to Thai women in the first place, and as you might expect it was likely purely physical. In other words, it was a classic case of the little head doing the thinking for the big head. We all have these images of our sexual fantasy women in our heads pretty much from childhood and for me one of the strongest images was that of the typical long haired, dark skinned, Polynesian woman in the grass skirt, standing on a tropical beach somewhere. I’m not sure where this comes from but I honestly sometimes think I must have been Fletcher Christian in a past life.
On the other hand it may just have something to do with the fact that the first naked woman I ever saw was a dark skinned Asian with long hair. I was about 12 years old at the time and my dad had taken me to Tassajara Hot Springs which is a sort of Zen monastery and hot springs located high in the mountains above Carmel Valley in California. In the summer time the public is allowed to come up and enjoy the facilities for a fee and they even have a few rooms as well for those who wish to stay the night. Anyway just a few minutes walk downstream from the complex there is a nude swimming hole and that’s where I first saw her. She was laying on her back across this large rock with her legs open – one leg hanging over the edge of the rock and the other propped up and bent at the knee. Now since I had to walk right by her to get to my spot, and since her eyes were closed, I really got an eyeful. It was not her fully exposed genitalia that got my attention though, it was her perfectly shaped body, her long black hair, and most of all, her dark silky smooth skin.
Later that night in the communal hot tub I saw several more naked white girls with really great bodies as well but they did not leave as lasting an impression on me as the Asian girl had.
This probably also has a lot to do with why I moved to Hawaii for a time in the late 90’s. Well, that and my love of tropical beaches. Unfortunately when I moved there I had no ideal that most of the good looking Hawaiian girls of Polynesian decent hated White people. Oh well, live and learn I guess.
Back to Thai women though, I guess my interest in them first started to wane towards the end of my first really long stay in Thailand (5 months I think) which I spent mostly in Pattaya. This is also the point at which I started phasing out bar girls, and in fact I actually had sex with more regular Thai women on that trip than I did with bar girls (only 4 bar girls – 2 new and 2 old). And in truth I was actually finding it harder and harder to find bar girls who had a body and face that did anything for me. In fact, during the entire 5 month period I only found 6 bar girls who interested me at all. I realize this might sound a bit absurd considering the shear number of Bar Girls per square kilometer in Pattaya during peak season but its true. And to make matters worse I was only able to sleep with two of these six women.
Perhaps I should explain that.
The first girl worked at a beer bar but she always refused to go with me. I later learned that she only goes out with very young guys – like 18 to 22 years young.
Girl 2 worked at a go-go bar but when I first met her she had stopped stripping and going with customers and only worked the door as she had a serious boyfriend. And I have to give her credit because, even though her boyfriend was away, I never saw her work inside or go with any customers the entire 5 months I was there.
Girls 3 and 4 were not actually bar girls but rather were performers in a kind of Cabaret show (no, not the Ladyboy kind). The first girl, I found out from other girls, had never socialized with a customer and likely never would. The other girl I actually ran into at the video store one night and it turned out that she spoke great English and had a really amazing personality. Unfortunately she also had an American boyfriend who was currently in Pattaya. Lets face it, the perfect looking ones who are also really great people ALWAYS have a boyfriend by the time you find them.
As for the two bar girls of the 6 that I actually did sleep with, I had misunderstandings with both of them rather early on which put an end to things before they even got started.
The first of these girl didn’t really make that much on an immediate impression on me. I first noticed her because every time I would walk by her bar on Walking Street that first week she would notice me in the crowd and smile. She was definitely a cute girl but I never stopped to chat because she just looked way too sweet an innocent and I didn’t think that’s what I wanted at the time. Also I figured that the odds on her having a nice body were pretty slim and I just never got around to stopping by her bar to find out.
Then one day I got completely fed up with this very sexy but very fickle bar girl who’s attention I had been trying to get for the past two days and I decided it was time for a change of pace. So I went straight over to the bar of the sweet innocent girl who seemed to have a thing for me. She was very happy to see me, and although she hardly spoke any English, we seemed to made an instant emotional connection. As we talked she really began to grow on me and she looked more beautiful every moment I spent with her. Not to mention, as it turned out, she did in fact have very nice body – tall, light skinned, and with curves in all the right places . She also had a very sweet and lively personality and a childlike quality and innocence that I really liked. Not to mention the fact that she didn’t act anything like a typical bar girl. Of course, I eventually found out that there was a very good reason for this. Apparently she had recently had a baby and her salary at the motorcycle shop in Bangkok was no longer cutting it, so just a few weeks earlier her friend who worked at the same bar, had convinced her to come to Pattaya and give the bar girl thing a try. Now, normally I take everything a bar girl says with a grain of salt but in this case I knew she was telling the truth, and that worried me a bit. You see I once had a bad experience in Bangkok with a freelance first timer who’s friends had set me up with her. The whole thing was extremely awkward and it was obvious as we had sex that she was deeply disgusted with herself for what she was having to do for money (she was actually married as well). Ever since then I’ve tried to avoid inexperienced working girls.
Still, I was quickly becoming strangely emotionally attached to this new girl and her possible lack of experience eventually didn't seem to matter. I stayed there for hours that first day and whenever we would run out of things to say we would just sit there across from each other holding hands and gazing into each others eyes. Sometimes our faces were so close she would rest her forehead on mine. Its was all strangely romantic for a bar girl encounter. Anyway either that day or the next I asked her to go with me and she agreed. So, I gave the bar fine money to one of the other girls who could speak English and I figured that was that. But a few minute later the girl returned with my money saying that she was sorry but I could not take my girl out after all. Apparently the Mama-san did not think she was ready to go out with customers yet. Needless to say I was disappointed, not to mention a bit ticked off, but ultimately I decided I was not going to take no for an answer. Long story short, after some intense back and forth negotiating I finally convinced them to let her go with me. Then, before we left, one of the other girls came over to give me some instructions. She told me how much I was to pay the girl and told me that I had to make absolutely sure to have her back by 4 PM the next evening. It was as if they thought I was going to run off with her or something.
Finally we were able to leave together though and I could not have been happier. Still, due to her childlike nature she didn’t seem like the type who would be very sexually experienced so as we approached my room I was worried that the sex might be a bit awkward.
Boy, was I ever wrong!
As we entered the room, and quite literally before the door even had a chance to swing shut behind us, she pounced on me and stuck her tongue halfway down my throat, frantically rubbing her hands all over my me as if she were dying of thirst and trying to extract water from my body. It was the most intense moment of passion I’ve ever experienced and we immediately started undressing each other as we kissed, leaving a trail of clothes all the way from the front door to the bed. Then she sat down on the edge of bed and started giving me oral sex – although only for about ten second. I guess she just wanted to get me even more worked up than I already was. Next she pulled me down onto the bed on top of her and we immediately went at it like wild animals. I was inside of her literally within 45 second of walking through the front door. Needless to say it was an amazing 18-hours or so until she had to go back to work the next day, and naturally I tried to see her as much as I could after that.
But all good things must come to an end, and this good thing came to an end much too soon. It all went wrong one night when we were on our way back to my place. I started off on the motorbike without noticing that she had not put her helmet on and we only got about 100 feet before a cop stopped us. I just couldn’t believe my rotten luck at having a cop be right there for the one brief period, of the one day, in the past 3 months when me or my passenger were not wearing a helmet. What are the odds? Anyway I was not really angry but I was definitely extremely frustrated with the situation. Then at one point, at the height of my frustration, I turned to her and ask why she hadn’t put her helmet on, and I guess it sounded to her like I was angry with her and was blaming her.
And that was pretty much that. She didn’t even want to speak to me after that and as we rode back to my place on the motorbike she wouldn't even put her arms around me for support.
Once we arrived at my room she gathered up her things, including her Thai-English dictionary which she had always kept there, and she left without saying a word. When she took that dictionary I knew it was over between us and that I would never see her outside of the bar again. I tried for weeks to get back in her good graces but nothing worked and after a while I just gave up because I felt like I was making a fool of myself.
Then about 6 weeks later I ran into her in an expensive restaurant in Central Pattaya with one of her girlfriends and I was surprised to see that she had completely, and drastically, changed her look. Her new look was very harsh – almost Goth like – and she didn’t seem to smile a lot either. Her demeanor had also completely changed, and for the worse.
We talked for a while and she told be how she was seeing some rich guy now and she even showed me a credit card he had given her to buy whatever she needed while he was away. Now if she had told me what a great guy he was I would have been happy for her but it seemed all she cared about was that she was now living the high-life. That innocent girlish quality she once had, and which I had liked so much, was now completely gone and there was nothing left but a cold-hearted bar girl.
She had changed so quickly in fact that I couldn’t help but draw comparisons to another girl I new back in the 80’s here in California. At the time I was working in a retail establishment and we had just hired this really cute new girl who had just broke up with her boyfriend and moved to my town to make a new start. She was about 19 and was your typical sweet but ditzy farmers daughter type. This was great for me I thought because I was a fairly shy guy back then who had not been laid in ages and I knew she was the type I could sleep with fairy easily. I also thought she could possibly become my girlfriend. I even had her talked into going to the local hot springs with me which meant bathing nude together.
Sadly it was not to be however because the very next day these two evil sorority sisters from the house around the corner decided to take her under their wing. I couldn’t stand these two girls because they were the typical mean girl types who’s idea of entertainment was to stand around watching other girls go by and scoff at them for wearing last years fashions, or whatever. Anyway within a week they had turned this sweet innocent girl into a clone of themselves. After that, they all dressed alike and acted alike, and they were always together. It was like a real life version of the film “Clueless”. In just one week they had transformed this sweet, naïve, innocent girl into a superficial, cold-hearted bitch. And of course she was now too good for the likes of me. In fact she never talked to me again or even smiled again around me or other people at work.
Flash forward 20 years and now I was seeing the exact same thing happen to another genuinely sweet girl. Not that it was really a surprise because they were both very similar types – a type that is very suggestible and has a very malleable personality. And yes, I see the irony in the fact that those sorority girls were exploiting the very same weaknesses in the California girl that I was hoping to exploit in order sleep with her. The difference of course is that she still would have been a good person after I got through with her.
Back to Pattaya though, the second of these two bar girls was seriously HOT and was quite possible the most stunning Thai girl I’ve ever seen in my life. In fact she was so beautiful, sexy, and classy looking that I could not believe she was working in a Pattaya beer bar. She was one of those girls who you just fall in love with at first sight and she was the perfect mixture of sophistication and sexiness. I eventually took her home for the night of course but, although I was hoping, I never really expected her to reciprocate my feelings. I had no doubt the sex would be good though. Unfortunately I had no condoms – quite honestly I’m rarely able to complete the sex act while wearing one – and as she apparently did not do oral sex I settled for a hand job. I really didn’t care at the time because I was just happy to be next to her afterwards and feel her perfect body wrapped around mine. Eventually we fell asleep and I was surprised when I woke up in the middle of the night to feel her running her fingers through my chest hair and looking longingly at me. The reason I was surprised is because she did not initially strike me as the type who would be very intimate with customers. Still the next morning I invited her to the beach and she declined so I figured, that was pretty much that.
Later that night however when I went to her bar she was very exited to see me, which also surprised me because it was a bit out of character for her. She came over to me and got very flirty and playful and I could tell she had just assumed I was going to immediately take her out again for the night. The problem is we had not used lotion the night before and the skin on the most sensitive part of my Johnson was actually worn off and torn a little from the multiple hand jobs This meant I needed to let it heal before having sex again, otherwise it would never heal. And since I had to budget my money carefully for such a long stay in Thailand I did not want to end up paying for sex when I could not actually have sex. Unfortunately she spoke so little English that I did not even want to attempt to explain this to her so I just said I was too tired to take her out. I could tell she took this very personally and was upset. After that day I never saw her smile again and she never flirted with me or even talked to me again unless I specifically asked her a question. Why is it that the most stunning girls are often the most insecure? In any case, this was the last girl of the 6 in Pattaya that I actually wanted to be with so I didn’t have any options left if I could not see her again.
One day however I saw her walking to work and I decided to talk to her and explain why I could not go with her that night. She still would not smile or be her old self but I finally got her to agree to go back to my room, although she would only agree to short-time this time. When we eventually got in bed, to my surprise, she climbed on top and just started having sex with me without a condom. It just kind of happened and naturally I assumed that she must be on birth control. In any case the sex was amazing and eventually I came inside her. This should have been a fantastic moment but when she found out that I came she got very upset which kind of ruined the moment. She was not angry, she was just extremely emotionally distraught, as if I had done something horrible and unforgivable to her. I could not understand this since she never said anything before, and in fact she had been on top most of the time and could have stopped at any point. And lets face it, its easy for a girl to stop but almost impossible for a guy to pull out before coming. But she was apparently putting it all on me and she immediately started getting dressed. I tried to talk to her and to find out why she was so upset but she just wanted to leave. She left so fast in fact that that I never even had a chance to pay her. Now a bar girl has to be pretty upset indeed to leave without even being paid so I knew I had screwed up big time. Right before she walked out the door I turned her around to face me and I could see the tears welling up in her eyes. I think she wanted to leave before the waterworks really started.
I can’t imagine what kind of past trauma would cause a girl to be so emotionally distraught over the mere possibility of getting pregnant but whatever it was it must have been pretty bad. I do know that she already had a daughter back in Chaiyaphum so she’s definitely been pregnant before. Anyway, much like with the previous bar girl, this one also never spoke to me again and when I would pass her on the street she would put her head down and avoid eye contact. She never did forgive me and within a few weeks she left Pattaya for good.
Of course none of this should come as a surprise to any of you. Remember when I spoke earlier about those self-destructive dating patterns many of us go through. Well, I’m no exception, and my pattern is clearly to fall for emotionally unstable women who will eventually put me through the ringer (emotionally but never financially). This was the case with my very first serious girlfriend at age 19 and I have been intermittently repeating this pattern all my life – up until fairly recently that is. Remember there is nothing even remotely random about the people we meet and ultimately fall for.
As for the non bar girls I saw on that stay, most were spread out between Bangkok and Udon Thani and since they all had school or full times jobs we couldn't spend much time together. There were also three local girls I dated but two had boyfriends which they didn’t tell me about (although I knew from day one) and the other was a rather flakey bi-sexual who didn't know what she wanted. I eventually got a steady girlfriend in Pattaya though and we had a lot of fun together for my last few months there. We would both crack each other up on a daily basis and sometimes both of us would laugh so hard we couldn’t catch our breath. The problem is that, although she was very cute and she had the type of body I usually go for, there was just no sexual chemistry for some reason and eventually I did not even try to have sex with her most nights. This in turn led to me having sex once or twice with a bar girl I knew who really excited me sexually, and my girlfriend found out about this. She eventually forgave me and we continued seeing each other but I still always felt intense guilt over this. I don’t usually cheat on girlfriends, and the only other time I’ve ever done it there was also a sexual problem in the relationship.
Of course they do say that “a man is only as faithful as his options”, and lets face it, in Thailand every man has an endless supply of options.
-To be continued in part 2- (I promise I’ll get to the Thai girl negatives soon)