There’s More Than Meets The Eye
I’m a new reader of the readers' submissions section although I have know about it for about a year or so, and I have read a few submissions, especially the green stars, and had found 2 particularly interesting focused on relationships between farang men and Thai women.
When I started reading the first submission I couldn’t stop smiling (and maybe laughing) with it. It was written by a supposed Thai-American guy who claims to be an expert in all the relationships in Thailand regarding farang and Thai women. The guy claims that he lived in US and currently lives in Thailand, so he knows everything regarding both countries. The guy, if I didn’t know his age approximately, sounds like a teenager trying to explain why the birds sing and why the bees carry pollen to fertilize other flowers and start life. It doesn’t surprise me at all. In my hometown most of the Thai males I met have the mentality of a teenager, the Thai women too. They look very childish and undeveloped in their mentality (I know what I’m talking about, since I’m married with a Thai woman).
Many Thais think “sanuk” and “talok” in their first instance and just after that they think seriously about the issues. His analysis is some kind of superficiality and I think Stickman likes it superficial, because he agrees with everything the guy says and defends him strongly therefore some people have absolutely good analysis and important point of views. I’m surprised with the green star because I think that guy doesn’t have any PhD or MBA in sociology that grants him automatic credit within his analysis. It’s only a subjective analysis without any credible data to support him, except the fact that he and / or his Thai friends say it’s like that and it’s a fact. It doesn’t surprise me because in my hometown I know a few Thais and all of them look excited to meddle in other people’s lives. What my wife says or does today I surely will hear next week in another Thai mouth maybe 300 km far away.
Regardless of what I’ve written, I think that guy has some good points of view too, but he doesn’t own the absolute truth. Neither me! What I’m going to write in the lines below are just my thoughts and a global perception of the world since globalization. They are not representative of anything or anybody, they are just my thoughts and my ideas connected with some other submissions. I want to make a statement that are much more points of view than what that guy states.
He forgot some important issues in his analysis:
1) What kind of farang males go living to Thailand.
2) The beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
3) Why I don’t see so much farang/Thai couples where the Thai is a male and the farang is a female, while in other parts of the globe women pay to have sex with those males (Caribbean, African and some countries in south Europe are fair examples). This can explain some issues regarding why some ladies in Thailand like farang.
4) There’s another perspective of the farang who are not sex tourist and truly want to know Thai culture. Women come on second plan.
5) What farang guys are seeking when they go to Thailand regarding relationship, fun and sex.
6) The beauty within Thai men’s eyes, according to this guy, is the same of many countries in the west (white skin). So, I believe it’s universal and not a specific characteristic of the Thai culture. If I like so much pizza that don’t mean I don’t like beans and I will not eat them as well.
7) For all the meaning I think Thailand still is an undeveloped country and intellectually speaking are way far from the western countries.
8) I will try to understand the socio-economic and cultural background of the writer as well his roots. Being institutionalized by the American culture won’t help the writer to develop new horizons. He will stick to the basic American way of thinking.
9) Final statement: resume
Let’s start my analysis point by point:
1) Thailand brings the worst regarding farang males. Most of the farang are fat, old, bald or ugly. They dress bad as well and many of them don’t have manners or even respect Thai culture. They only want to drink beer and get fatter. Have many farang retiring in Thailand as well. Don’t expect that the worst of farang can conquer the best of the Thai ladies. Even Thailand being an under developed country, I think that wouldn’t happen often. This will not happen in any country in the world, why it should happen in Thailand?
Once I read some reader being totally against farang learning Thai language and trying to understand Thai culture. For him, those farangs look like pussies and don’t deserve any respect. This guy, of course, owns a bar and really doesn’t care about absolutely anything except drinking beer, watching football and hanging out with prostitutes back in Pattaya so, anyone with manners represents a serious threat to him and his mates regarding Thai ladies in general. I think he’s like: “I’m the best, fxxk the rest”. This is an example of the generality of the sex expat who comes to Thailand into retirement mode. They come into an exploitation mode as well, don’t respect the locals and don’t care about having manners or learn about the country and his culture. For me, they are the really faggots, they are scared of learning Thai and only use their body language to scare out of shit other people, impossible to have a positive conversation with most of them. In my hometown we have some of them too. We call them hooligans or thugs and they are always having problems with the authority and with the natives. In a serious country they should be put on a plane to fly back their own country, “lew lew”. Thailand on the other hand close its eyes to these small dick thugs. That’s what they are… small dicks, dickheads, steroid freaks, whatever. They give farangs a bad name everywhere they go. They come from the Neanderthal era, and I really don’t know why the hell they are tolerated. So, dear writer, can you explain me why you think this dickheads will attract the best of Thai ladies? In their hometowns they surely won’t attract the best. These drinking cavern guys will only chase hookers and easy pussy, why in Thailand would it be any different? They come with the “chasing easy mode” ON as well.
Now, the farang who comes to Thailand to really understand and learn the Thai culture and look to have some interest in the country and usually have the best behavior, these guys, will make a difference within the Thai ladies. This guys are polite and not womanizers, they are just ladies man. Those guys will be a major threat to the Thai men regarding their Thai beautiful ladies. If they look good, they will be the Thai men worst nightmare, even if they don’t speak Thai. Those guys are genuine ladies man and will not make much effort to attract ladies, because they don’t need. Fortunately for the Thai men, they are not the majority who comes to Thailand as expats or retiring.
2) This is so true. What is beauty for me, the writer can think is only average or ugly. As a south European citizen, I love a good tanned skin. We love the sun and go to the beach in the summer. Most of the US citizens love it too. They have some kind of people there, direct descendents from Italians, they call themselves “Guidos” or “Guidettes” and they live in New Jersey the most. They like to be tanned, do bodybuilding and eat some sort of Italian food. Their ideal of beauty is similar to the south Europe people: tanned bodies. Even the north European citizens like those sort of brown tanned skin. I think because they don’t have sun most of the time of the year and most of their population has white skin. In the other hand, south European citizens like white skin and blondes from north Europe. I think this fact is due to this statement: “The opposite attracts each other”.
North Europe white skin ladies, even like black guys from south Europe or Africa and also like brown tan skin guys the most. It looks magnetic! I think Americans, Europeans and Aussies will not make drama because some ladies in Thailand have her skin tanned. We feel attracted to their exotic look and to their tanned skin. But some sort of guys would prefer white skin ladies as well.
The writer absolutely forgot to refer to the inner beauty (much more important). Here in my country we have a saying like this: “Half of the women beauty will vanish with water”. This is so true because many women look beauty only with makeup. The true beauty comes from inside. The outside beauty is only a plus. I don’t choose my partners only because of outside beauty (sure I need to feel attraction too), but I think a good connection and have intersection points regarding interests and way to see life is much more important.
Most of my friends in the west don’t think Asian or, in this case Thai women, look attractive. So, there’s not such a big demand from us, western guys, as the writer want us to believe. If there’s not much demand, surely the best of the west males don’t come to Thailand seeking for the best females too. Thailand attracts mostly the worst males from west. Most of the western males don’t feel attracted to the idea to bring Thai ladies to his own country, even less west males would consider low-level ladies like bargirls and Isaan ladies with 6 years of school, except the desperate sex tourist/expat.
3) I think these will cause a big discussion. I had never read about this issue before. In my time spent in Thailand I only saw for one time a couple like this. He looks like a freak and she looks like a backpacker. If the writer thinks farang males get the worst from Thai ladies, I think Thai males get the worst from farang ladies as well. I’ve never been at Khao San Road or Koh Samui, but I think it’s a place where most of the backpackers will settle down when they come to Thailand.
Maybe the writer can look naïve, but some people just don’t mix at all. It’s not usual to see a hippie with a yuppie in the west, although this can happen. It’s well known that Asian guys, in average, are shorter within their intimate parts. Some Asian chicks get more excited with a bigger member. Happened with me, and I think this happened with many farangs in Thailand. There’s a quote that can explain this: “When you get black, you don’t want to go back”.
I know some sort of farang ladies goes to Caribbean, south Europe and Africa only as a sex tourist. They pay to have the pleasure to have a stud, usually a Latino or a black guy. I had never heard about those ladies going north Europe or even Asia with such purposes. In the other hand I don’t have many cases of hearing of such stories back in Thailand. I can state that Asian guys and specifically Thai guys are lousy lovers.
Now, the Thai ladies can give enormous pleasure to farang guys and they are famous for their sexual skills (I think the prostitutes, bargirls and freelancers for sure). But they are surely open to try different things because they are so submissive and shy. If these ladies didn’t has any prior contact with a western guy before, even better.
4) Some guys come to Thailand with a genuine thought of knowing the amazing Thailand. They don’t come to Thailand because of the steroids, the hookers or the gogo bars and naughty nightlife. They come because of the beauty of the country as a whole and want to know better about Thailand and their traditions and culture. They are genuine seekers of wisdom and culture but, they are men. Almost all men like women, and Thai ladies are quite pretty and exotic for most of farang. They are a delight to the western guys. Their smiles can conquer even the most naïve or cold-hearted farang.
5) There’s nothing to discuss here. I think they come because of the nightlife and bars scene in nasty places in Bangkok, Phuket and Pattaya.
Once, in Central Mall Pattaya, I saw 2 couples of farang/Thai ladies sat in a coffee shop, the guys looked German or Austrian. I supposed they were genuine couples, but no, I was so much wrong. When they get up, one farang opened the wallet to his stunning Thai lady and she took 8,000 Baht from his wallet. It looked like some sort of ritual, because a few moments later the other Thai lady (this one wasn’t so much of a stunning) took 5,000 – 6,000 Baht from the other guy’s wallet. I’ve noticed in some hotels with lady friendly policy that happens in the lobby too, amazingly with Asian guys the most. Why is this? They can’t complete the transaction in the hotel room? Awkward to me…
Many times I heard references to the Thai brides as “trophy wives”. I wonder why, since the writer think the farang only get the ugliest ones. I agree with the writer that states most of the farang gets the worst. I think because farang only want to meet bargirls. Most of the farang have a genuine obsession with this girls and I really don’t know why. For me, they are the lowest, although I recognize some of them look so pretty, especially when in their early 20’s. As a matter of fact I can state my points of views, but I think what really matters is the eye of the beholder. He’s the best judge.
6) The writer stated that in Thai men’s eyes the ideal of beauty is the white skin kind of lady. Well dear writer, in Europe, America and around the globe (Japan, Korea and so on, even in Africa) we have that kind of ideal too. So it’s not a unique characteristic of Thailand. I like white skin ladies, but I like the tanned skin too. But most of the important to me is… I like women. And if they are sexy and funny I will take it as a plus.
There’s an urban myth that states men choose the women by the size of their boobs. In part I agree. It cannot be completely true, but the important issue here is as more hot the woman is, the more chances she has to have men chasing her no matter what the color of her skin or social status. Sex appeal really matters in a relationship. That makes Thais racists? I think not. I will call it preferences. The writer has his opinion and I think it’s not a reality check. It’s just his reality check in his way of thinking. I will write more about this later.
I saw some of this ladies (white skin) back in Hua Hin (Hua Hin is a well known place where middle to upper classes in Thailand usually spend their weekends. It was where the royal family spent their vacations and weekends as well, long time ago), they look very good indeed, and seems most of them belong to the upper-middle class or even high class of the Thai society. They look good, but they look damn boring as well. They don’t party, they don’t even look that they will socialize with others rather than their own family or/and their Thai boyfriend/husband family. They have some sort of values and are mostly family values. For a farang who comes to Thailand to party and have fun I surely think they are not an option even if they go hang out in Ekamai or Thonglor areas. I have this kind of ladies in my country, so as the writer can see it’s not only in Thailand.
There’s another point of view I also agree. Soup operas, TV shows, publicity in general and even Hollywood have their fault as well. Some people can state that is wrong, but I will remind them about the Lolita’s fashion in Japan. Do you think the ladies in Japan start to wear Lolita fashion because they had remembered that? Maybe is some kind of fashion someone started and become trendy because of publicity. Usually in my hometown we have some trendy campaigns and ladies seem to follow them as well, because gives them the perception they look good like their idols or gain some social status. They want to look same as TV. Same in Thailand, I suppose.
I saw many Thai ladies putting white powder on their faces to get white because they can’t afford for a lifting to get them white skin. This is weird in the west? It looks perfectly natural in Thailand. Can the writer explain this phenomenon? Surely not! For him is everything so black and white, “djing djing”. I think the majority of the Thai people don’t have that pale skin the writer refers. Some minority descending from Chinese, probably have pale skin, because their genetics. But the majority doesn’t have it. I saw it with my own eyes. Many of the Thai ladies that have pale skin usually use makeup for that purpose. You can believe me, dear writer, and I’m not such an expert in that matter.
Now, when he asks a Thai lady if she would date a westerner guy… well, my experience tells me, polite ladies will always tell a gentleman what he wants to hear. In Thailand ladies have the non-confrontation policy, so she will tell you exactly what you want to hear too. You don’t believe? Same thing in the west! If the lady really cares about you (romantic or just friendly) she will tell you what you want to hear for sure. She doesn’t want to harm your feelings and want to keep her options open too.
I really think Thai ladies don’t think Thai males much appealing. When I go alone to any mall in Bangkok I feel the ladies looking at me and showing some sort of interest. I think because I look different. Same happens to me when I see a farang lady in my country, especially Asian. I feel the attraction and I can’t take my eyes from her if she meets my sex appeal requests.
Another intriguing subject related to the writer statements. What is the normal Thai lady? He gave a sort of example (list #2). For me, the list #2 looks more like a normal working Thai lady with an average salary in Bangkok and looks more like a middle class lady. He forgot that about 66%, the equivalent of 2/3 of the Thai population, lives in the rural areas, and probably don’t have much education neither. Unfortunately dear writer, this is the reality of your country. Thailand still under development and the “normal” is below what should be expected in west. So, I believe list #1 is more what is “normal” in Thailand, because represents the majority of the Thai population. This is the perception of my friends in the west too. I hope in the future Thailand can prosper more and more and become a nice country to live to their natives. I don’t have many data to give examples, for that reason I will make it easy, because this would give a huge submission as well.
I think that who have a bad perception about the Thai ladies are the Thai men (at least the writer). As I stated in a prior submission, there’s not a manual for Thai ladies and a different manual for farang ladies. You can apply to Thai ladies what you apply to western ladies as well. Ladies will always be the same all over the world with cultural and behavior differences of course. But their essence remains the same. Some will call it genetics, some will call it behavioral. Whatever! Now, the funniest part is when the writer states they are shy when comes to men and they first ask questions about the guy they want to check availability. Come on! Are you serious? I already know that Thai mentality is different. Thais take much more time to be mature. For example my wife is on hers early 30’s and sometimes she behaves like a spoiled brat or a teenager. What the writer describes looks like when I was 15-16 years old. Look like teenagers. Do you think westerners will have the patient for this kind of games? Well, I surely not! This is a reality check too. Thais think differently from westerners? Surely yes! But I think the major difference is the mental age. Thais are still in mentality development until they reach later 30’s. This is a mentality check now!
7) Asian people think different than western people. Enough said about this. Thais in general look more childish and immature. They think “sanuk” and “talok” before starting to get serious. Most of the Thai ladies are funny and I believe that’s why the western guy look so attracted to them.
They are really exotic and beauty, have great bodies, are easy going (for the same look we don’t get such easy going in the west). In general, Thai women are not so over valorized as the farang women and I think this is the crucial point. Most of the single farang come to Thailand for the need of sun, booze, fun and entertainment and to get a hot baby easily, even if they need to pay to get one. That makes their heads spin quickly and they don’t want to come back west to their old, fat and ugly women (because they know that’s what they will get back in the west).
8) The writer has 2 worlds (Thai and US). Although he has born in US he looks like Asian. The same I had stated to the males I can state to the females. Should a normal lady in the US consider dating an immature Asian guy? Thai mentality is quite different from us in the west. I already stated this with my own eyes in my own country. Here we have a small community of Thai people. Most of them work in farms, some work as masseurs. They don’t have many options back in the west. I find them very hard to fit in a much more competitive society, because they are lazy, disorganized and not proactive people. They don’t care about learn the native language as well. The reality check within the normal Thai is as follows: lazy, immature, reactive and don’t care much about future. They are happy if they have food in the table today, tomorrow someone will provide food. This doesn’t fit much in the western mentality. We don’t work only to eat today. Our society is more organized and productive. Thai economy is rising up more than the west economy, but they are stuck with many problems, social problems the most. If you are not a good provider of services, you are not profitable.
Now, this is where the writer is settled, in this limbo between west and east way of thinking. For one hand he was raised in US, maybe he has graduation from a good university. He probably doesn’t have so much success in with the western ladies, that’s why he is always talking about how impressed with him the Thai ladies are. Because he have things that Thai ladies want in a guy: money, education and manners. This makes him a farang guy in his own culture and second country (Thailand). For everything it was written regarding his submissions, I think he forgot he was raised in the west with most of their values and culture.
He’s some kind of hybrid, but he’s also a farang that speaks Thai. But he’s not a genuine Thai male, so I believe regarding his scale he can be considered as ‘11- Foreign group I (high status Asian)’ in his list #3, so he’s in the middle of the Thai women preferences list. According to his own words, the writer is listed in the middle of the list, but because he speaks fluent Thai he will leap 1 or 2 steps in this list. What happened with him back in US since he speaks good English as well and it’s his native language and according with him he prefers speak English language? According to his list he also should be in the top of the women preferences back in the US. Why he’s not? It could be because he doesn’t have good prospects in life? That’s why he has returned to Thailand? Because in Thailand he can have more prospects in life or maybe he is just like the other farang who come to Thailand and could have better prospects with women there.
One thing I don’t understand is that he claims his best male friends in Thailand and US are farang. According to him, he just doesn’t fit in Thailand too. In one hand he claims that to have good prospects with Thai women you need to have Thai male friends, in other hand he claims his best friends in Thailand are farang as well. This makes me wonder that he’s a farang in his own country (now he claims to be Thai since he’s living in Thailand for good), a farang fluent in Thai, and maybe, because this status, he has achieved in his second country and, according with his analysis, he have more success with Thai women. This makes me thinking that if you have the best qualities that males can have, you can have the best of females as well, and I mean worldwide.
The writer also states that Thai people will not share with you, farang guy, everything about what they think about you. Well, in my country is the same. I will not share my thoughts about Thai people with them, because most of them are clearly negative. They lie a lot, they are lazy, they don’t get western culture and don’t want to speak our language, they think when they smile they can get what they want, I need to explain things over and over until they get it, sometimes they take 3 weeks until they accomplish a simple task. And most important, they think we can’t see that as well. I can smell a lie way too far, and if I don’t smell it in the moment, I will smell it soon, because a lie is not sustainable forever.
In my case, for example, regarding list #3 from the writer, I am considered as ’12-Foreigner group II (farang)’. My wife had some guys from ‘9 – A good Thai man with some prospects’ and ’10 – A good Thai man with little to no prospects’ after her. One of them was considered as “very handsome” for many of the Thai ladies there, and I met his ex-wife (stunning lady, no doubt, although a bit stupid), so I believe that guy in particular have good market in Thailand. He was so jealousy of me that he started to brag with my wife regarding me, and try to put me down the most he can. Why my wife has preferred me, a lousy 12 instead of a nice good looking Thai man with 9 in list #3 of the writer? I will remember all that I didn’t speak Thai at all at that moment, so I was a really 12 that time. His ex-wife want my wife to date with some ’11-Foreigner group I (High status Asian)’, I believe some Japanese or Indian guy living in Bangkok, so she can forget me. That was too late, because we already in love. Hope the writer can answer my question please, and state how wrong he is. I think the writer will find a lame excuse like my wife is not a normal Thai lady or something like that. In fact, my wife is very normal (tall, pretty, slim, not white skin but not dark skin too, she was born in south of Thailand living in Bangkok when we met and have a university degree as well, so not an Isaan low level lady according to the writer words).
I have another case of a couple, they met in Bangkok a few years ago while he was living and studying there. Now they are married for about 3 years and have a small daughter with 2. My farang friend has received some death threats from Thai men, some in his FB profile because he married a Thai native. My friend claims that Thai men act like this because they don’t like the idea to compete with farang regarding their Thai ladies. Thai men don’t like when they lost their women to farang and will blame those farang for their own incapacity. I can assure this particular lady his quite pretty as she used to work as a model while in Bangkok. Tall, slim, white skin, university degree, born and raised in Bangkok, etc, etc. Just to state she’s not an Isaan low level lady.
Now, the writer has some American culture mixed. Do you know how the normal American looks to us, European? They look like over-weight, think Portugal is a place in Spain, eat only fast food and only drink Coke, Pepsi or beer, have high level of cholesterol, everybody owns a gun, they are violent and have high level of criminality, don’t give true value to the money they earn and don’t mind to over pay when they are overseas (this leads to the increase of the prices in that place and the farang exploitation as well double pricing). I think the writer can have the worst of two opposite worlds. One, the rich US with his economic policy, the other with Thai mentality, including a fair blindness to understand the western culture and, subsequently, open his mind to the basics of human relations. Unfortunately, I know how a Thai mind is set. They are so closed to change their culture when they come to the west. When I visit Thailand I want to learn about culture, language and traditions. I want to eat their food as well.
Once I knew one particular Thai lady. Because she was requested a few times to take care of her friend’s children, she (in her thoughts) has become baby-sitter, without never worked in the business. Looks awkward? This is amazing Thailand, the land of smiles.
I will not blindly defend someone just because he speaks my native language or he understands my culture. I will defend people because they can make good statements and good judges based in their own believes and life experience.
9) As a final resume I believe more in the Alpha male thing than in all the craps the writer stated in their submissions, although I think he has some good points of view too, like communication (very important issue regarding any kind of relationship), but the rest are only stereotypes and his Thai mentality coming up on top. The most well prepared males will get the best females. If you have leadership skills, look confident, have a good self control and work good under stress, you have definitely Alpha male material and will get the best females as well, or have a bigger range of choices, no matter the nationality, religion or status the female have. In the other hand the writer want us to believe that Thailand is another planet and they think and act differently from the all other country. I think most of their thoughts reveals a bit of childish and immaturity. I will not talk about IQ because I don’t have the proper data and I don’t want to harm some feelings, but I think in average the Thai IQ is lower than in the west and developed countries and that will really matter. This doesn’t mean there aren’t intelligent people in Thailand, because I already stated more than once that there are!
I can see what you've tried to do, but I think there are rather too many generalisations here.
I also wonder if perhaps you have rather too negative an outlook of other cultures. You appear to look down on Thais and Americans which won't win you too many friends here, this being a Thailand-centric site and Americans comprising about 1/3 of the readership.