Some Responses to Stickman’s Observations in Support of Jayson
I've been reading this "debate" unfold with fascination, and I wanted to write up a few responses to a few points made both by Jayson and you, Stickman, as you clearly take the side of Jayson and supply your own observations in support of his. I wanted to link it all into some grand narrative or essay, with a natural progression from point to point, but that proved impossible, and my submission has to stand as merely an assemblage of points hastily cobbled together, unified by a common theme. So here goes!
1) All human beings have some kind of preference for their own kind, possibly slight, possibly large, but decidedly a preference 2) Thailand gets probably the worst farang in the entire world, so Thais are particularly sceptical about farang, and quite justifiably so.
I don't think anyone can realistically deny the truth of these two facts. I think this should be elevated to the level of a Universal Thailand Maxim.
These two facts define the boundaries of farang sexual status in Thailand. It is between the limits set by these two facts that farang must find their happiness here. But what are the implications of this? As we clearly see, it simply means, to put it bluntly, that in Thailand farang men are not so highly desirable that they will have a shot at the best women simply by virtue of being members of the farang race.
Well and good. We no longer live in the heady days of white privilege where fat, balding, middle aged men can have unfettered access to thin, pretty, high-class Asian women based simply on the collective prestige and power of his race and civilization, and his position as ruler of Asian men. I mourn the passing of such a wonderful period, but it is over. Time to let it go.
The debate is really over what kind of opportunity a farang guy DOES have with the best women. That's the real focus of the debate. Jayson seems to think it is extremely small, to the point of almost no opportunity even if he is an extremely desirable farang guy, where another Asian commentator acknowledges that an extremely desirable farang guy does indeed have a fairly good shot at the best women, but the vast majority of farang have almost no chance. <Critically, you omitted the point Jayson was very clear in making that the white man can elevate his chances right to the top of the ladder if he becomes fluent in the local language – Stick>
As far as I can make out, Stickman seems to side with Jayson, which I think is completely wrong. Jayson seems to me to understand women very poorly with his talk of "communication", to place far too much faith in what Thai women "tell me" and accept that at face value (although in fairness to him, what else can he do? Still, he should cultivate scepticism when women tell him things), and to have obviously ulterior personal motivations in claiming that farang have almost NO shot at the best women.
2) People have a strong personal incentive to explain their failures with women in the way most soothing to their bruised egos. This is human nature. If you are in a foreign country and the local women don't dig you, it cannot possibly be because of your own shortcoming, but simply MUST be because of the fact that you are a foreigner! This is the easiest and most pleasing and most frequently resorted to explanation by foreign men when they do poorly with women in another country.
This is so general a principle, and I've seen it so many times used by so many men, that I think all guys should be very careful when hearing someone give a trip report on the attitudes of local women in a foreign country. I know I am very sceptical when I hear these claims. The first time I noticed this clearly was when a friend of mine travelled to Spain and reported in the strongest terms that foreigners have no chance with Spanish women, no chance at all! Spanish women simply didn't care for foreigners! – I stared at him in disbelief, as I had a fantastic time with the local girls in Spain! They loved me!
It slowly emerged that my friend's look simply was not highly valued in Spain, while mine was. My friend is dark and vaguely Middle Eastern looking, and while this worked very well for him with Anglo women who think dark men romantic and sexy, girls in Spain were much less interested. My look, slender, blond, fair skinned, fit the Spanish ideal much, much better. Here is an interesting blog that has an interesting post on this issue.
What is emerging with greater and greater distinctness and clarity the more Stick talks about his personal experiences in Thailand, is that despite his excellent website, he personally does not appeal very much to Thai girls.
I come to this conclusion, reluctantly, because my experiences in Thai nightlife is so dramatically, vastly, and consistently the opposite of his, in almost every sector of Thai nightlife, whether normal clubs or go go bars, that it is becoming quite clear to me that either one of us is lying or we simply generate vastly different reactions from Thai girls.
I, for instance, get tons of positive attention from Thai girls in Ekamai/Thonglor – it is one of my favourite places to party for this reason! – and I almost spilt my coffee when I read Stick say that he visited recently and got no attention whatsoever. Can we possibly have gone to the same place?!?!?! Yes – but we are two very different people, evidently. I also have great experiences, at the other extreme, in Thermae, where Stick maintains with the unshakeable firmness and seriousness that almost all farang are non-entities. Again I wondered if we could possibly have been to the same place! How completely mistaken I found this to be! <Sorry to interject but I have GOT TO comment here. I have absolutely no problem whatsoever meeting quality Thai women and have dated a range of women from all parts of the country, all education levels and all socio-economic backgrounds. From the way you have described yourself, you may have one advantage over me with some women and I am generalising here, but Thai women often like a blonde / fair-haired guy – and my hair is dark. That said, I am sure I make up for it in other areas – Stick>
And that is the crux of the matter – it's very hard to admit to yourself that you do not greatly appeal to the local women in the country you have fallen in love with and chosen to make your home, and it is so much more soothing to explain this away as it being simply a case that ALL foreigners do not appeal. How much better!
I can honestly say I have competed with, and won out against, Asian men and Thai men with high quality women on many, many occasions. THIS is my experience in Thailand, not what Stick reports and others who agree with him, and while I don't deny that Thailand has shown a certain face to THEM, I think it's important for readers to know that Thailand has shown a completely difference face to at least THIS farang!
None of this leads me to deny that Thai girls ARE predisposed to prefer Thai and Asian men, and that farang men DO operate under a handicap here, but that that despite this perfectly ordinary state of affairs Thai women, the best ones, remain HUGELY open to attractive and desirable farang. The two facts are entirely compatible!
I don't, in essence, deny the kernel of what Jayson and Stickman say, but in my experience it does not lead to the conclusions they say it does, it does not limit the horizon nearly as much as they claim, and both are writing out of personal biases.
3) Stickman says that he asks his students if they have any dreams of shacking up with farang men, and they say no, and he says this proves Jayson's point. But this is completely unfair and full of problems – what pops into the head of a typical Thai female when she thinks of a farang guy in Thailand? We know the answer – a fat, middle aged, dirty kind of guy, ugly, ill-educated, and probably poor. THIS is what the average Thai thinks when she thinks "farang in Thailand". Any question that does not clearly explain that we are not talking about THIS kind of farang necessarily, the kind that predominates in Thailand, is useless as a gauge of a Thai girls attitude.
With farang in Thailand being of a certain type and having picked up a certain reputation, what Thai girl would ADMIT to wanting one in a general sense without making it explicit and clear that she is attracted to a farang who does not fit the Thailand ex-pat mould? Clearly, none.
But what does any of this tell us of how a Thai girl will react when she meets a young, thin, good looking farang with a charming and winning way with women? It tells us nothing. That's why the question is fairly useless!
I can't count how many times I have hooked up with Thai girls who told me they never considered a farang before and had never been with one. Of course she didn't. She didn't know farang like me existed in Thailand. She never thought of a guy like me when she thought of "farang in Thailand". I can't blame her. But her actual reaction to me in the flesh would not have been predicted by asking her beforehand, in a general way like Stick and Jayson seem to have done, whether she would ever dream of hooking up with a farang!
4) Stick mentions in his notes to one of the submissions that Asian women, and Thai women in particular, are considered the best looking in the world, so OF COURSE you cannot expect them to be satisfied with low quality Western men of the type that is typical in Thailand! This interesting comment shows such a lack of perspective on how Asian women are generally perceived in the West that it momentarily stunned me. The truth is that the percentage of Western men who have any interest at all, even slight, in Asian women, much less Thai women, probably comes in under 5%. I myself love Asian women and think them adorable, and it was a huge shock coming back to the West and having my friends habitually describe Asian girls as ugly. I deplore this fact, but nothing I did could awaken any interest in Asian women amongst my friends, not inducing them to visit me in Thailand, not trips to other Asian countries, not visits to Asian nightclubs back home. I thought it was merely their lack of familiarity with Asian women's beauty, but it wasn't, it was a deep seated inability to see that beauty.
The problem with living for long as an ex-pat in Thailand is that you completely lose sight of the fact that you are not representative of the majority, but are in fact part of a self-selected community selected at least in part based on a common love of Asian women, a taste that probably occupies a huge portion of your mind to the point where it seems almost like common sense, but is in fact VERY far from the tastes of most Western men.
We live in a very global world, if Asian women were widely thought the best women, you'd have Tom Cruise, Brad Pitt, and millionaires and playboys of the world hooking up with Asian girls by the hundreds and thousands, yet in fact the only Westerners you see hooking up with Asian girls are the ones having a hard time with their own women, to put it charitably.
So it is certainly a huge error to think that Thai women have their pick of the worlds men and can afford to be super choosy- I would say Thai women, on a global scale, not my own personal preferences, probably rate fairly low in the tastes of the worlds men.
Well, I guess that is it for now. I've said most of what seemed to me needed to be said in response to what I've been reading on the site for the past week or so.
Some good points made for sure but I found myself disagreeing with most of what you say. Many readers may well agree with you.
Just a few points about ME here which may have some relevance to your submission and your projection of me doing poorly with Thai women which I can assure you isn't even remotely close to the truth. Being younger than the average Stickman reader and as as someone who looks after himself, I don't think Thai women find me a turn off. I speak good, polite Thai and for sure that helps, especially given that many Thais may not speak English well or perhaps of more relevance, are too shy or scared to speak English. Note, I am talking about women outside the bar scene here. Of course, bargirls willingly speak English. I mentioned that on one night out in Thonglor this week I did not get any interest shown in me – which is true. That said, I was not trying to meet anyone. I was out with two mates and we were just out for a few drinks and nothing more. We saw some REALLY hot girls, it must be said. Night spots in Thonglor sure get some of the very best Thai women!