Stickman Readers' Submissions May 11th, 2010

A Reality Check–The Follow-up

Well, well, it seems that I’ve stirred-up somewhat of a controversy. A lot of folks are taking it a tad personal. And as someone pointed out, it really says a lot more about you than me. As I’ve shared with Mr. Stick, I have extremely thick skin, so there’s nothing that offends me personally. We’re all anonymous, for Christ’s sakes, so it’s rather pointless trying to insult each other. You guys have no idea who I am, nor I you. And I get no bonus points for being liked.

Why did I even write the piece? Well if you’re constantly reading a bunch of know-nothing foreigners defaming your women on a regular basis, particularly when they obviously don’t have a clue of what they’re talking about, you may decide one day to speak your mind. I could have just ranted, but I decided to educate at the same time. The ironic thing is that I did it the American way. I could have done it the Thai way, which is to say, be non-confrontational, meander around the truth, use a neutral tone, and essentially, try not to offend anyone. That is, try not to create a “loss of face.” But farangs have made it loud and clear that you don’t like that method of communication. You’d prefer us to be more direct, cut to the chase. Don’t sugar-coat anything. So I did. And now I’ve offended a few folks. Thais just can’t win unless we’re kissing your ass, right? Well screw you and the horse you rode in on. Sorry (to the mature folks in the audience), I couldn’t help myself.

He Clinic Bangkok

Yes, I admit that my submission was a bit harsh. That was my intention. Sometimes you need a sledgehammer to get your point across. And in this case, it appears necessary. Some of these false beliefs that farang guys have are so ingrained that it seems you need to be slapped silly to come to your senses. Yet, it’s apparently not enough. Many of the readership here still doesn’t get it and probably never will. If you’re offended, then it might apply to you more than you’re willing to admit. And if you’re not, well, it doesn’t.

Many of the responses were quite expected. It’s sort of like telling a bunch of kids that Santa Claus doesn’t exist. But if you’re convinced that everything I’ve said is completely wrong, then by all means, keep believing what you will. Keep believing that Thai/farang couples are just the same as any other ordinary couple and that all others, inside and outside of Thailand, view you with envy. That there are no serious issues, communication or otherwise, and that all farang men view Thai women as the most honest, trustworthy, selfless, salt-of-the-Earth sort of beings. Keep believing that all Thai women want nothing more than to have a farang mate and that it has nothing to do with finances. That all the hottest Thai celebrities are with farang guys as we speak. Walk outside in the streets of Bangkok, Pattaya, or anywhere in Thailand and see for yourself the breathtaking beauty of Thai women who are with farangs. I will not deny you this pleasure if your fragile ego requires you to cling on to this belief.

Back on the planet Earth, however, reality may not be the same as what you’ve conjured up in your head. You can suggest that the “train wrecks” that you read about in Stickman and other English-speaking Thailand forums are just the rare exceptions. That no one writes in about the good ones. But seriously, a Thai/farang disaster is almost as common as a car accident—we all know somebody who’s been through one. The farang solution has always been to blame the Thai gal. If you’ve read this site and other forums, you will be convinced that it’s never the farang guy's fault. That he’s just so perfect in every way and that it’s always the Thai women who are to blame. It must be, because the farang guy did everything right and his conduct is consistently beyond reproach. Is that possible, in a statistical sense? That farang guys can be so perfect nearly 100% of the time, while Thai women can be so consistently horrible? I’m no mathematician, but that doesn’t seem possible to me.

CBD bangkok

I’m sure many of you hope that I am some sort of cardboard caricature or boogie man that can be easily dismissed as a dope. I’m sorry to disappoint you. I’m about as normal as they come, except that I have an extremely unique insight into both the American and Thai culture. This allows me to compare and contrast the two with an entirely different perspective. I’ve mentioned in a previous piece that I live in Thailand and do have a lot of farang friends. Wonderful people, these guys and gals. Back in the states, some of my closest friends were not only white, but African-Americans as well. Sometimes I wish there were more African-Americans in Thailand.

By the way, I’m not pale, I don’t wear glasses, and I certainly don’t look Chinese. I actually look more Hispanic than Thai. In my younger days, I was told that I bear a resemblance to Johnny Depp, although in Mr. Depp’s defense, I disagree. The point here (relative to my piece) is that it would have been rather self-serving for me to suggest that I look like the sort of guy that some Thai gals believe to be “the ultimate.” I don’t. It surprised even me (at the time) that some of the Thai gals that I know would say that. But I expected the mostly farang readership to get this point. This type of guy would not be considered attractive in the western context, but amongst certain circles in Thailand, he is. Does this fact threaten you? You don’t have to agree with it or even understand it. It’s just the way it is. The Thais are under no obligation to subscribe to the western standards of beauty or attractiveness. And that’s how it should be.

But in fact, the truly ultimate Thai guy was portrayed in a wildly popular Thai romance movie that came out last year (English name “Bangkok Traffic,” but I think the Thai name is something along the lines of “Electric Sky Train”). The guy in that movie was, well…drop-dead gorgeous. And I’m not even gay! But if you watch that movie and watch how that character was portrayed, you will see exactly the sort of guy that would fit the description of a “dream guy” for most Thai women. The way he carries himself, the way he treats his female counterpart, the way he acts around others, his ambitions, his emotional make-up (e.g., never getting upset, even when he should) <BIG point this and one area where most farangs, me included, failStick>, his job, and so on. Oh yea, and his communication skills. And no, I don’t look like that guy.

Back to my submission. While I don’t mind criticism or disagreement of certain points I made, it does grow tiresome when certain individuals pick things out of context and twist my meaning completely around to support their contention. Racism? Please. Irrelevant to my primary points. Besides, Thais mainly distinguish between Thais and non-Thais. Last I checked, Asians are the same race. By the way, Thai women by and large don’t aspire to look farang, they aspire to look Korean or Japanese. And the communication point—read my freakin submission! Most women the world over have many different traits they look for in a mate. But if you had to choose one as being the most important to a Thai gal, just ONE, what would you choose? Is it money? Physical appearance? Family status? Or perhaps sexual prowess (as Korski would suggest)? For normal Thai women, I would suggest effective communication.

wonderland clinic

And the point about personal preference, yeah I read you. This was one of my main focus, yet, it was lost amongst all the hurt feelings and bruised egos. We all have our own personal visions of beauty, desirability, etc., but how did we come to this conclusion? What shapes your opinion of who’s attractive and who’s not? The Mixed Guy really brought this point home in his submission because I went through the exact same thing growing up in the USA. I shunned Asian girls in favor of the blonde all-American looking girls because that’s what the mass media said I should do. But it seems like Farangs are saying that they can have their own views about what’s desirable in a mate, but if the Thais differ from these beliefs, then it’s wrong? Again, the Thais are under no obligation to subscribe to the western standards of beauty, attractiveness, or desirability.

The intellectual dishonesty of some of your readers is pretty glaring. Some decided to get back at me by insisting that they have no interest in Thai women, or that Thai women are unattractive (and listing the ways), or that Thai women are way below average when compared to other nationalities. Hmmmm, well shouldn’t you be on, or, or some other site that talks to the virtues of blonde women with big boobs. But no, you’re on a Thai website, responding to a post about Thai women. You wouldn’t even be reading Stickman if you weren’t interested in Thai women you two-faced hypocrite! And then there are others who will question my motive. Well, I think I’ve covered that.

But to be deadly serious for just a second, I did find one type of poster to be particularly offensive. The guy who wrote this: “…remember who your readership is and pissing them off by insulting their intelligence may work for awhile but in the long run will lose you credibility.” Let’s cut the bull. What he’s really saying is “If you don’t agree with us, we’re walking.” Is this guy serious? How about “freedom of speech,” journalistic integrity, honesty, ethics and all that happy horseshit that farangs are constantly going on about? Does it only apply if you agree to the position of the so-called “free speech?” He obviously doesn’t subscribe to this statement: “I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it!” Heck, I’ve disagreed with Mr. Stick on some of his “Green Star” submissions. But I don’t go about threatening him with some sort of economic boycott. First of all, this guy is seriously overstating his importance. And secondly, what is he trying to achieve? By threatening him, this guy hopes that Mr. Stick will…what, change his mind? You would respect him more if he were to pander to the so-called “readership” and shift with the political wind? This makes me (and should everyone else with an ounce of integrity) respect Mr. Stick even more for standing by his personal convictions and beliefs, regardless of how unpopular it may be to the masses (or perhaps the vocal minority). As for you, Mr. Anonymous, what rock did you crawl out from you despicable, low-life, communist! There, I said it.

I do appreciate the fact that some of the folks who read my piece really understood what I was talking about. And I’m not talking about those that agreed with me, but those that truly understood. Anunya, Mixed Guy, Nigel, just to name a few, and of course, the Caveman. Some of the responses were rather enlightening, such as the “Mixed Guy” revealing that this same sort of thing is going on in China. The Caveman’s response to Korski in particular was about as well as I could have done. And still, Korski doesn’t get it. I wanted to refrain from rebutting every single piece that disagreed with me because it’d be rather pointless. Those folks were riding all emotion and there was nothing substantive there to even debate about. I will say that I wish some of you would come better armed. It’s like coming to a gun battle and bringing…spit wads. Please, if you’re going to tell me that I’m wrong, you should bring a little more than “you’re a loser and a dummy and I don’t like you.” Korski, however, is a special case.

About Korski: It may seem that Korski and I were disagreeing about the same topic, yet it’s pretty obvious to me that he was talking about something entirely different. In case your audience was not aware, Korski is a serial monger. This shouldn’t come as a surprise, or an insult to Korski himself. I think he’s pretty proud of this label. But being an expert (or self-proclaimed expert) on prostitutes does not make you an expert on women. If anything, it may compromise your ability to even discuss this topic intelligently. But this seems to be Korski’s one and only qualification. The fact that his fan base would agree and applaud him for his stance shouldn’t surprise anyone. If you were to stumble onto a forum of pedophiles, you may notice at first that it was just a normal bunch of guys discussing everyday life sort of stuff. But once you realize what these guys were really about, I’m sure it would shock and horrify most normal people. They live in their own little warped world. Yet, these psychos have managed to convince themselves that their behavior is normal and this belief is reinforced daily by like-minded individuals. If these folks were to mistakenly take this behavior out into the mainstream, they’d realize pretty quick that their belief is pretty wacko.

Mongers should be careful as well. When you start talking about Thai women by using Thai bargirls as a reference point, you’re really demonstrating a huge ignorance of Thai women in general. Normal Thai women have more in common with a typical farang woman than they do Thai bargirls. But Korski speaks of Thai women and Thai bargirls as if there were very little discernible differences between the two—except that he believes the bargirls to be more upfront about what they’re after. For example, Korski really values a gal with sexual experience. And by that, Korski doesn’t mean one or two previous boyfriends. He seems to suggest that if the gal had on her resume a couple of dozen porn flicks, the entire Florida State football team, and a tribe of African Pygmies (for variety sake), she would be golden. Or at least sexually curious. That’s pretty warped thinking. And if you’re around a bunch of normal people (and I believe that a vast majority of farangs are not hardcore mongers), you’re going to quickly expose yourself as a…see what’s that scientific term? Oh yea, pervert. So Korski and his merry-band of perverts can keep believing as they will, but it won’t change reality. Using the Caveman’s analogy, Korski strikes me as someone who believes that 2+2=5. And nothing anyone can say or do will change his belief. So I’m happy to disagree with him.

One last point about Korski: I can’t talk to his so-called expertise on Filipino or South American hookers, but it’s hard for me to accept that he’s an expert on even Thai bargirls if he can’t speak Thai. That’s just an absurd notion. It should be obvious to anyone who’s followed this site that Mr. Stick has infinitely more insight into that scene than anyone. Even for someone who no longer partakes, the fact that he’s fluent in Thai and has spoken to many of these gals without the intention of buying their services speaks volumes. Being fluent in the culture requires more than just being in-country for years and years. You can’t absorb this stuff by osmosis. You really do need to make the effort and no one (that I know of) comes close to Mr. Stick in terms of making a genuine effort. In short, Korski can talk the talk, but Mr. Stick walks the walk.

I’m still amazed that many out there are so determined to convince others that communication, i.e., learning the local language in the country in which you reside, is not that important. This is utterly comical and I can’t believe anyone could say that with a straight face. It’s beyond comical, it’s lunacy. So what you’re saying is that a Mexican or Korean (pick a nationality) living in America can do so without learning English and live just fine and dandy. Is this possible? Well, of course. But if said individuals were to claim that even though they couldn’t speak English and had very few American friends (outside of their hooker girlfriends), they’ve still managed to gain in-depth insight into how Americans think and why Americans behave as they do, would you believe them? I wouldn’t. Exactly the same for long term expats in Thailand who can’t speak Thai. You don’t need a lick of Thai to be able to pick-up a bargirl. But you sure as heck need effective communication to have a meaningful, long-lasting, and complete relationship with a normal Thai girl.

One disappointing thing (and Mr. Stick has pointed this out) is that very few of my detractors have made the effort (or have the courage) to get to the bottom of what I was trying to do. That is, try to explain why there’s this huge problem between farang male and Thai female couples. Why have so many farangs concluded that Thai women are, in short, so despicably evil? My piece not only involved my own observations, but it included the insights of many normal Thai men and women. Gleaned over a long period of time. So you can sit around and think up reasons that might not bruise your ego too much, but do try a bit to get to the truth. The readership—and certainly Mr. Stick—would be able to sniff out your BS if that were your intention.


Stickman's thoughts:

In addition to all of the follow up submissions that Jayson's original piece generated, I have received quite a number of emails on the subject, probably an equal number in favour of what Jayson said, as against – most at one end of the spectrum or the other. There seems to be little middle ground. If there was one trend which emerged, it was that Asian guys, or at least guys emailing me with Asian sounding names, were almost entirely in agreement with what Jayson said.

Looking back at the original submission and all of the follow up submissions it generated, I am of the firm belief that many visitors to Thailand don't want the illusion they have broken. They don't want to see the big picture for fear that if they understand things better they might find that all is not what it seems and they very well may enjoy it less.

I think it is about time we put the "Jayson debate" to sleep, and moved on. As Bob Likes Rice said in an email to me this morning, it's getting to be rather a little like a discussion forum – and I absolutely do NOT want that.

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