Stickman Readers' Submissions September 30th, 2008

You’re The Problem, Not The Girls

I probably won’t make too many friends with this submission but, telling it the way it is often doesn’t win you friends. It is not a unique Thai trait to avoid an issue in order to save face. Although the Thais may be masters of it, we Westerners are not totally inept at it.

There are a significant amount of entries on this site that begin with “I am married with X kids“, or from the first few paragraphs it is obvious that the author is. Well, if you are married, what the hell are you doing in the Thailand P4P scene to begin with? You have the nerve to bitch and complain about how you have been lied to and deceived by a Thai bargirl, when you yourself are or have done the same thing to a significant other back in Farangland. Oh yes, you all have the same excuse – western women are fat / ugly / domineering / insert your stereotype but, the point is you have made a commitment to a woman that, at some point in your life, you were in love with and promised to remain faithful to. What, somewhere along the line you realised that with commitment and family comes responsibility and you don’t like that? Well grow up and face it like a MAN – have you ever thought that that is why the women you get “stuck” with appear to be the dregs of Western society? The women you complain about are women who themselves can’t do any better than land you, an immature, selfish prat?

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Western women, being far more liberated than their Eastern counterparts, are able to be a lot more selective in whom they choose as mates and the fact is, no woman likes an immature, spoilt child – women want a MAN! Whinging and whining and complaining that Western women don’t know how to treat a man etc. etc. doesn’t make you more appealing to any woman, Eastern or Western – the Western women simply brush you off (they probably earn more than you and / or can do better on their own or find a real man) and the Eastern women take you for all they can get (they don‘t want a little boy anymore than their Western counterparts do but they are not stupid either and realise that you have a lot more money than they do, so why not milk you for all you are worth) and then go to their Thai real MAN.

The sad fact of the matter is, you whine and bitch about being manipulated and deceived by a little Asian prostitute when you have been doing the exact same thing to a person or people back home who at some point you professed your undying and eternal love and support for. What is even worse, in fact downright despicable, is that while you have the choice to take the risk with contracting a potentially fatal or permanently damaging disease, you then put your partner in the situation where she is at risk as well. I am certain that when you get back to your homeland after your two or three week sojourn through Thailand, you do not suddenly become celibate until your next visit – no, indeed you inevitably go home and tell your loving (fat, ugly, domineering bitch of a) wife that you missed her so much and ultimately have (I would presume unprotected) sex with her, with a good chance of passing on anything you may have caught in Thailand. You have a choice to take the risk – your trusting wife does not. You truly are a lowlife bastard who doesn’t even deserve the (however emotionally damaged) woman you have at home nor the little tanned minx(s), that only for your good fortune in being born in the first world, you are able to buy.

Another significant proportion of the submissions on this site come from another class of person, not far removed from the first subset. I am referring to all those poor, hard-done-by, “I’ve been divorced 20+ times by evil Western women” and taken for half of all I had (read ‘we conjointly worked for / created’ but why should I face up to my responsibility and let her keep any marital assets) and now a manipulative little Thai bitch has caused my poor heartbroken soul even more suffering by wiping out my retirement savings. Well, I’m sorry, but what did you expect? You couldn’t maintain a relationship with a woman with your own background and upbringing so you thought that flying thousands of kilometres and trying your luck with a woman that was from a totally different background, culture, social class, generation and who, under any other circumstances would be out of your league; would result in total and unequivocal bliss for the remainder of your natural life? I’m sorry but what planet are you from?

Ultimately there is very little difference between you and those men I mentioned in the first few paragraphs. The only real difference is in years – you are those men in 20+ years time. Maybe you didn’t run off to Thailand to have sex with prostitutes or otherwise fool around while you were married but ultimately you have the same immature, selfish mindset that other people owe you something and it is never your fault (even marginally). You, like your younger peers, refuse to take responsibility for your actions and decisions and then whinge and complain that it is the women who are heartless, deceitful, venomous creatures. For God’s sake, you are 50, 60 or 70+ years old, it is time to start acting with the maturity of someone who has seen that many sunsets.

Have you ever really reflected on why your marriage or marriages failed in the first place? I ask because it is obvious that you did not learn anything from your experiences. Regardless of what the ultimate reason for the break-up was, you still share some of the blame – yes that’s right, YOU were to blame in some part, just as much as your (ugly, fat, bitch) wife was. Have you heard of the saying “it takes two to Tango”? Well it takes two people to make a marriage (or any relationship) work. If it broke down, you both played a part, regardless of the specific details. At the end of it though, you refused to act like a MAN and instead act like a spoilt, selfish little boy and ran off to find affection in the arms of a Thai prostitute.

You are no less to blame on the subject of the financial and emotional mess you got you got yourself into with a Thai lady either. Do you really believe that the girl is manipulative and deceitful and it is her fault you got taken for thousands of dollars? I don’t believe so. Ultimately you knew, entering into the relationship that she was a prostitute (I mean come on at 50+ you could not honestly believe that a 20 year old girl found you to be the sexiest man in the world) and there is an implicit (at in the beginning of the relationship, explicit) understanding that it is sex for money. Well, she kept her part of the agreement. She stayed with you, was there for you and gave you cuddles and kisses and sex and stroked your ego and told you how you were a handsome man etc. In return you were paying her money. After the initial, explicit part of the relationship (I go with you tonight for 2,000 baht) progressed into a long term affair, the goalposts may have moved but the rules remained the same. It was still sex for money, only now it was not a negotiated amount – you simply took as much sex and affection as you could milk from the relationship and she in return took as much money as she could milk out of it. There was nothing deceitful about it – sure she may have lied about where she was or what she did with the money but you still knew it was sex for money. You complaining that she tricked you into paying for her family's sick buffalo that didn’t exist is as stupid as her complaining that you tricked her in to giving you a blowjob. Initially she created the impression that you were the sexiest man on earth, whilst now she creates the impression that she “love only you too much baby”. Yes she is fxxxing other men and lying to you, just like she was lying to you with the very first words out of her mouth when you first met “hello sexy man”. You gladly accepted that lie but get upset with her lies later when she attempts to maintain her part of the agreement; that is, retain the illusion of a doting girlfriend.

As far as I’m concerned, she is in the right and doing the honourable thing, upholding her end of the bargain. You are the one who is being manipulative, attempting to force her from a business transaction whereby she provides the “girlfriend” experience for you and you provide the money for a job well done; to a situation whereby she is your young, sexy semen repository, cook and cleaner and in return she receives the fantastic reward of being the semen repository, cook and cleaner for an elderly Farang. Jesus, how could she even think of passing that up, these Thai girls are so strange?

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I can already hear the argument “oh but I bring so much more to the table than her, I can give her a good life free of financial worries”. Well guess what – that brings us back to the original agreement, sex for money, regardless of the form that the money arrives in.

A little about myself. I am 32 years old, never married (have had a string of girlfriends and a few long term relationships. I just never found a girl I considered would make a good wife) am in no rush to get married but, have always been happy to split everything down the middle when I broke up with a long term girlfriend. I figured she put in as much to the relationship as I so we both get half. Fair’s fair. I have two girls in Thailand, one of whom I know works as a prostitute and the other who, although she tells me otherwise, I‘m fairly certain goes with guys. I also have a girl in Cambodia and a girl here in Australia. I have never paid any of them any money (except the bar fine which I accept as fair, someone has got to pay it) and I have told them I never will, yet on my next scheduled visit to Thailand, they have both told me they want to spend time with me, despite them getting their salaries cut at their respective bars for not working (so they don’t even expect me to bar-fine them) and knowing I won’t be paying them for their time. My Cambodian and Australian girls have always insisted on splitting everything down the middle. I buy her a drink, she buys me one, I pay for this round of pool, she pays for the next game and so on. The two Thai girls are the same once we are out of their respective bars. When travelling with them, yes I pay for the accommodation and travel tickets, as I am under no illusion that they could not otherwise afford to accompany me but that is it. My Aussie girl pays for her own tickets and half the room BTW, she can afford it as much as I can.

I have told all of them that what they have with me is a temporary thing which may or may not end up permanent and all have an awareness that there are other girls in my life. The next few years of my life have me travelling to a lot of places in the world and I will not commit to any of them just yet. They know this and I have let them know that they are free to pursue other options just as I will. We cannot be together all the time, so it is not fair for us to make demands of each other as we are all adults in the prime of our sexual lives and I would not consider for a minute expecting them to stay on some godforsaken shit-hole of a rice patty in the back of who knows where, waiting with baited breath for me to arrive. The point is, I have been honest with them all and from the beginning have forged relationships built on mutual trust, respect and sexual compatibility, not money. So much has been written on this site about how different the Thai girls are from Farang girls and that all they care about is money. Well I have to say, that has not been my experience. Whilst I do see Thai girls (and guys) trying to milk farangs for money, I see Aussies milking tourists here in Australia in the tourist hotspots and I suspect that the same happens anywhere you get tourists. My experience however, has been that girls are still girls, the world over and while I believe about one poofteenth of what the likes of ‘The Blackest Bart‘ and ‘Aha Wendigo‘ tell us about themselves, some of their commentary on dealing with girls does strike a chord. Sure, there are cultural differences but if you start a relationship based on money for sex, regardless of the country you are in, this will always underpin the relationship. It is not rocket science to get the type of relationship you want, with the girl that you want, there are really only three points to it:

1. You’ve got to be honest up front.

You have to let her know you won’t pay her for sex, that you want a proper relationship with her. This is not to say that you will never give her money, gifts etc. All girls like to receive gifts as it makes them feel special and loved, but the point is to dissociate the receiving of money for the provision of sex. This may however mean that you have to look outside of Nana, Cowboy, Patpong and Pattaya.

2. You‘ve got to lay the ground rules in the beginning.

This means telling her up front what you want from the relationship and telling her quite succinctly that you are not a walking ATM. That you won’t be giving her money for a ‘sick buffalo’ or ‘brother’s moto repairs’ etc. That you won’t be taking her shopping for gold and so on. Let her know you are not stingy and will treat her well, take her to nice places to eat and on nice holidays but let her know that any gifts or treats will be when you want, because you felt like spoiling her, not because she asked. Tell her if she asks, the answer will always be “NO.”

Non-saleable gifts are best. I had a floral arrangement sent to one girl on her birthday. The result: she walked into the bar to find a large bunch of flowers specially delivered for her, this gives her face and bragging rights to the other girls, there was also a box of chocolates, which she could sit around and share with her friends and there was a teddy bear, which will serve as a permanent reminder each time she looks at it. It is not something she is going to take down to the pawn shop and sell as it isn’t worth anything except as a memory. As soon as she got to work and got the gift, she called me back in Australia (yes, she called me, she didn’t text me asking me to call her) to tell me how happy she was that I had remembered her birthday and done something for her.

Considering that you have met her in a bar or club, if you want her exclusively and not going with other customers, this is something else you will have to bridge early on as well in terms of what she will do for work. (Sitting at home up-country with a monthly donation from you is not an option). You have to accept that if she is to continue working at the bar (regardless of what she tells you) she is more than likely still screwing other guys for money. If you can’t accept this and she is not willing to leave the bar, you have to walk away at that point.

3. You must be willing to enforce the ground rules.

All my girls know that if they start pestering me for money or start playing games, they’re getting the boot quicker than you can say “I love you long time.”

The key point is that she needs to KNOW (if she doesn’t believe you, you can be sure she’ll test you), that you are more than willing to walk away at the first sign of bullshit; she must know that you are the goods and she is just one of many, many girls out there, thousands of whom are just as good or even better than her. She needs to believe that she stands to lose more if the relationship sours and you need to act so as to demonstrate it (not just tell her it is so).

How did I create relationships not based on money? Easy, I removed it from the equation from the beginning. I told each of them, “I will not pay you for sex – period”. Also, here’s a tip – keep it in your pants. Girls are human beings like everyone else, and humans by nature want what they can’t have. As an example, one of the Thai girls I have was chatting with me in a bar. I paid her bar fine and 2,000 baht and told her “there, I’ve paid for your evening; you don’t need to go with a customer for money tonight.” Of course she then wanted to go back to my hotel or a short time place to do what she assumed I’d paid her for. I refused and said I was happy drinking and chatting. Later, we left and went for a walk and got something to eat, before I said goodbye, got in a taxi and went home. The next night I went back to the same bar, paid her bar fine and gave her another 2,000 baht. She took me by the hand to go for a walk. She pretty much marched me straight to the nearest short time hotel and paid the room fee with the 2,000 I had given her before banging the life out of me. That was the last money I ever gave her. I demonstrated to her that I had the money and could pay her for sex but that was never going to happen. She had to demonstrate value to me before I would ‘give it up’ (my dick, not my money). By paying for the room she demonstrated to me that it was not about the money, she wanted me and would pay for the privilege. Had she not done this, I would have cut my losses and moved on.

So in a nutshell – if you’re married, get the hell out of the p4p scene you slimy, little worm – either that or grow up, grow a set of balls and break it off with your wife, give her the half of the marital assets she is entitled to and take a bit of responsibility for your past decisions. If you are in Thailand looking for a girl to be a girlfriend / wife rather than the illusion of such, then don’t start the relationship based on a sex for money basis, because that is all it will ever be. Instead, keep it in your pants for a few days or weeks and spend your time sorting out the wheat from the chaff.

Stickman's thoughts:

This is not an easy submission to comment on as there are a number of different points, some of which I strongly agree with and some of which I do not.

When you talk about guys cheating on their wife and then getting upset at prostitutes, I am in agreement 100%. And guys who risk their partner's health by having unprotected sex with hookers and returning to the marital bed are total scumbags. This is a huge problem in Thailand – AND is widely prevalent amongst Westerners with a real correlation between one's income and its prevalence i.e. the more they earn, the riskier the behaviour it seems.

When you talk about people getting upset about a 50 / 50 division of assets, I am in total disagreement with you. Every set of circumstances is different and frankly, from what I have seen, men tend to get raped in divorce settlements in the West. Suggesting people accept it like a man is just daft.

Finally, I think your perspective of relationships in South-East Asia is a little warped. While you have some good ideas, your experiences seem to be entirely with hookers who you want to forge a relationship with. You're 32 for goodness sake – you do not need to be involved with hookers at that age! Decent Thai women would love to meet a bloke your age – and many for no strings attached fun. I'm sure you know that there are hundreds of submissions on this site from guys whose attempts at creating a relationship with a hooker crashed badly.

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