A Moral Dilemma, The Feedback
Summary from the previous submission, I am in the not so envious position of knowing both parties of a BG / Farang relationship that is heading towards an immanent marriage and I believe the result will be a train wreck.
The dilemma, the girl (Lek) in question is not keeping up her end of the bargain / negotiated agreement between them. The other party (victim Len) in this case has become a friend over the past 12 months. Just to make matters an order of magnitude worse the girl in question is my wife’s cousin. To get the full rundown you can refer to the previous article.
I submitted the first episode to obtain some independent outside perspective and feedback. I decided to consult the masses prior to pursuing a course of action that may well have lasting effects on my relationship with my Thai family. Both families live in the same village and I frequently visit them. My wife is in denial of what is gong on and is reluctant to get involved, “up to them” is the response from her. Well it’s not “up to them” in my opinion. Len has been so blinded he is not seeing the signs of trouble ahead, and the signs are as large as Dana’s ego.
I don’t believe Lek’s Thai family is putting pressure on her to scam Len, or even aware of what their beloved daughter is doing but again I’m the outsider. The family nice enough to my face, but one really never knows with the Thai’s. Farang buys whisky so be polite when he’s around.
From the responses I received, 87% response with yes I should tell him, the 13% gave reasons for not telling him. It would have been interesting to get some perspective from the Thai readers of this site but so far none forthcoming.
For me no question here, he needs to know, I am in complete agreement with this and have been since the first submission. I Just need to work out how to let him know. Don’t tell him was full of reasonable comments and justifications but overwhelming response is let him know. I have no personal issue telling him just concerned by potential impact to my life.
I now have a number of recommended approaches from the subtle, the let the wife do it, the sledgehammer approach right through to I’ll do it for you “Thanks for the offers but my burden”.
I am looking at the more subtle approach Len is already working in a bad place (Tour of duty in Iraq). Additionally I like a peaceful marriage, I am trying to avoid the confrontation with the Thai families, life could become very uncomfortable. Worst of all an enraged Lek after me, I don’t want to think about that. Luckily she does not know where I live and it’s a long way out side of Pattaya.
So here a selection of extracts from the responses and views as expressed if anyone is interested. Some I have used extracts from the mail, some a direct paste of the mail as received. Thanks for all the feedback.
The responses I have split into the advice to not tell him and the advice to tell him. I am still receiving them daily but time is running short.
Arguments not to tell.
1. Morally, there is no question – you should tell your friend that he’s being ripped off – but that is Western morals, and they don’t translate too well!
In practice, it just doesn’t work, and here’s why.
If you tell him, then chances are, he’ll confront his girlfriend, and he’ll either tell her, or she will ask, who told you?
That won’t do you any favours, as, whatever happens to them, she’ll be seriously angry with you – and the consequences of that can at times be extreme. Don’t think he’ll keep your name out of the picture.
If, as a result of that, they split up, he will blame you for bringing it to his attention.
She will then deny everything, in which case he has to choose between her (who he loves), and you (who may be well be a good friend, but he doesn’t love you the same way).
He’ll probably carry on with her, with his eyes a little wider open.
Remember that Thai girls are absolute experts at justifying their actions. They will use culture, family, and just about everything else, and if that fails, they just fall back on ‘face’.
Chances are, he’ll choose her, and then, if it all goes wrong, he won’t be happy with you for telling him what he should probably have spotted himself, as he’ll feel stupid.
Equally, if you wait until it goes wrong, and then tell him, ‘you knew, but thought it best to keep quiet’, he’ll just ask why you didn’t tell him sooner – and then you’ll fall out because of that.
Also, don’t involve your better half – in the main, Thai girls will stick together, cover each others lies, and don’t take kindly to being found out (face again!).
I have had several friends in similar situations, and without exception, when someone has been told that his girlfriend is playing around, they have ceased to be friends, regardless of whether the couple stay together or not.
Bottom line is, keep out of the way, but if it all goes wrong, then you need to be there for him – but don’t ever let on that you knew: He’ll ask why you never told him, even though, if you had, he’d have been angry with you, and not her.
2. I started off writing you a reply with the suggestion that you should voice your concerns to your friend and then halfway through writing the reply I changed my view. This is because your friend's reaction to hearing that she has been continuing her business behind his back might be over the top (OTT) when all she is doing is just business. Thais tell lies all the time, so I believe this is not a good reason to risk your friend going OTT with the concerns you have.
She might change once they are married, if she does not, then that is definitely the time he should know. Right now, I think it is best he continues thinking she is being true to him and quite possibly in her mind she is. After all, they might be very happy together for a period of time, which might be more or less equal to the happiness he would share with a ‘good girl’ from his own country.
Your friend might not completely understand the Thai way of thinking and doing and therefore could over-react. So, I would personally choose to ignore what she has done or said before and see what happens once they are married.
3. Don’t bother to tell him. He won't believe you anyway. And when he is finally fleeced and finds out, he will hate you even more because you knew of his shame before he did. And your wife and her family will hate you for being a tattletale. There's a good chance that it would destroy your own marriage.
It's someone else's business. Stay out of it. And don't mess with someone else's rice bowl. Just pretend that you don't know, never knew, and just can't imagine what happened. Ignorance is bliss.
Besides, he already knows anyway. You said that he knows her past. If he knows her past, he knows her present, and her future. He has chosen to ignore it. So should you.
He likes the adrenaline rush and the excitement of her antics. People with PTSD always do. Most often, they seek out relationships just like this one. If she were good and decent, he would leave her for someone like what she is. Let him enjoy himself.
Arguments to tell.
1. I ask her if I was seen coming out of a bar on Sol 6 with a TG, will her friends tell her. She made the mistake to say every Thai will tell her and that's how it should be. (What’s good for the goose is good for the gander sums this comment up “Same same”)
2. For me it would not be any dilemma!
I know Thailand and Thai people quite well and I know that it is always them against us (foreigners). When I hear about anything that can damage a foreigner, I always tell him and warn him. Unfortunately, many of us are running behind their dick and prefer to believe their cheating Thai girlfriend. My answer is 100% YES.
3. I agree with Stickman – you have an obligation to inform your friend.
Maybe start with providing a subtle lesson on the behavior of woman, and how some are "gold diggers". And that he should take his time and get to know his girl better.
If he makes direct inquiries – maybe respond that you have seen others with this type of behavior and the outcomes you have observed. Also, might want to provide him with some suggested reading, such as Private Dancer. WRT your wife – let her know that Len is a friend and that you will be talking to him about his future. Do not say anything to lose face.
It just so happens that some Thai girls are hospitable and friendly on a more persistent basis, and many times with a financial objective in mind.
4. "She may well change once he is in Thailand." Ehhhm…no! Ok, let's give her a chance then…"Maybe", at most. I believe the odds are heavily stacked against this actually happening. Even if it might in the beginning, in the long run I believe the chances are at 99% that she will screw up his life.
Yes he does have a right! Yes you do have the right to tell him what he cannot see or disregards out of his love for her or his lack of experience.
You don't have to make the decision for him, but you should definitely share your views and impressions with him. He has a right to get the full picture before he decides whether or not he wants to go ahead with his decision of marrying her. If he is so much in love as you say he is, probably nothing you tell him will really stop him. However, if I was in your position I would sincerely talk to him and explain the pattern that could be behind all this.
5. I'm with Stick on this one. In your shoes I would tell the guy. The only circumstance I could see myself NOT telling someone like Len is if I hated him (and it's clear you do not).
Married end of Jan? Ouch — that doesn't leave much time.
It's time for a talk with the guy. If he decides to proceed, at the very least you've cleared your conscience. At 25 and in the army, he probably doesn't have a lot to lose for assets anyhow. Sure, he'll lose the most important asset (time) but it won't bugger him up financially. Anyhow, that's my humble opinion. I'm curious to know how it all works out. If you're so inclined, let us know how it all goes via another Stickman entry.
6. This is a good example that I always believe. It's really not bargirls' fault. It's the guys who push themselves to the bargirls. I also think the guys go with bargirls have really low self-esteem. There are so many non-bargirls whom are not hard to get. Why go after bargirls?
Take a picture she's still working. Send me the picture and I'll send to your friend anonymously.
7. Well, you have certainly proposed "the" question!!
The first part is, "should he be told?" HELL YES!!!!!!!!!!!
Sadly, the reality is; will he believe it and/or do anything about?
He will confront her, she will cry…deny…cry…deny, AND then BEG forgiveness (if she owns up to it!) AND, then comes the make up sex!!!!
What this poor slob needs to do is;
1. STOP sending money,
2. Continue saving and studying for his certification,
3. Come to Thailand to live, teach and enjoy,
4. Have MANY relationships with local (and non local) ladies.
Over time he will soon discover that in SEA we are the KING!!! Also, he will further discover that your cousin-in-law was a sad chapter in his life.
BUT, If after 1,2,3, and 4 above he still fells the same for the Dragon Lady—simply go down and pay her bar fine!!!
Now, should YOU tell. Sorry…Not if you want to have a continued peaceful marriage.
You would want to be told, I would want to be told, and he NEEDS to be told. What he does with it is now his concern. You can lead a horse to water.
Lastly, If you wish, I will e-mail him, I will be very gentle, and, if the timing is good (June to Nov, 07) I will buy him enough soapys to make his fingers wrinkled!!!!!!!!!!!
8. I say tell him! I had a similar situation with (what I thought was) a good friend. In the beginning he didn't believe me and when he realized the truth he was ashamed to admit it… oh well… I would have wanted him to tell me had the tables been turned.
My point is – beware – she is very manipulative and has him wrapped around her fingers. Be prepared to defend yourself, possibly even physically. When he finds out that he has been playing the fool, he is going to be PISSED OFF!
9. My friend you are "Between a Rock and a hard place".
On one hand (which is good on you) morally you don't want to be part of what might be a bad train wreck.
On the other, if you directly get involved and he gets wise backs out, the sis's money pot dries up, she could hold ill feelings toward you and your wife, or worst she and her sibling, hold it against you and things go south for you.
What I would do would be to take an indirect or anomonys (spelling?) approach. Some how this young GI needs to know about Stickman.com to open his eyes. He also should get a private investigator (a neutral party to enlighten him). If he reads your submission and it turns a light on great, and there is always plausible denial, I don't think you would be directly linked by anyone. There are so many of these cases that happen. I am an officer in the US military, I have seen things like this happen to my troops. It even happened to a degree to me, and she wasn't even a bargirl. Thankfully, I got clued in prior to buying real estate for her and god forbid marrying her.
10. There's a thing here in the USA we call man-law.
Man-law says that you sit your pal down over a beer and fill him in on the realities of his impending doom come late January. As a man, you hate to see one of your mates toss his life down the shitter over some pussy. Guys do it all the time I know, but there is a chance you can save Len.
You know exactly how this situation went down. Young, lonely soldier comes to Thailand on leave. Young, lonely soldier meets bargirl who treats him like a king, while he's in LOS anyway. She promises to love him long time, take care forever. Young, lonely soldier who has never had this kind of treatment from a woman back home thinks he has hit the women lottery and <cough> falls in love. Another man about to be Keelhauled because he's thinking with his dick. Christ almighty, will it never end.
Again, sit Len down and try to slap some reality into the boy. Print some of the "bargirl love story gone wrong" submissions from Sticks site and make Len read them. You may not save Len but you owe it to Len and yourself to at least try.
11. Send him the link to the submission, maybe he will really believe you care, and maybe read some more eye openers…………..
12. Thanks for writing your post on Stickman, very real and telling, but you did not need to ask, now did you? You already know what you must do; you just do not know how to do it.
You can take the girl out of the bar, you can take her temporarily away from the chrome pole, and the whoring, and the gambling and the nightlife, and the drinking, and the excessive spending, but once a 19 year old girl is hooked on that lifestyle, she will always go back to it. Thai’s stick together, and Falang should also.
Please do not lie to your would be in law, but be careful how you tell him. It must not get back to your Thai family that you rated out his sweetie. Also, you must hit your friend with the truth at an appropriate time. He is in a heads up situation if he is seeing active duty in the infantry. He does not need to be distracted in the short term by heartache, but you still have to tell him the truth.
13. It is obvious that Lek is just another whore who is leading on your friend for the money. If you need proof, go and follow her for a day or two. You will soon see what she is up to. These girls can't help themselves. Take pictures of her with the other men. There is no doubt in my mind from your description of her constant phone 'problems' and the way she is behaving that she is out to rip off your friend, AND she hasn't given up her night job. When she is finished and he has no money, no home, and no future she will leave.
Tell your friend to read submissions on Stickman. If he still insists on coming here and throwing his life away on this worthless whore then at least you can look yourself in the mirror after it all falls apart. You will have tried.
You are welcome to send this email to your friend. I hope it serves as a wake-up call. You might also want to send him the link to your submission. At least then he will understand why a 'good friend' is trying to 'destroy his relationship'. I think you are a very good friend for trying to prevent this poor man from falling into the same old trap so many others have before him.
If he doesn't appreciate your efforts, and cuts you off, what have you lost? Certainly not a good friend.
14. I agree wholeheartedly with Stick. You need to tell him and quickly. Lets hope that he is ready to listen to you. It is just possible that he has created an unrealistic picture of her in his head to get him through his posting, and will be reluctant to let go.
As for the Thai family, my experience is that they always are hugely optimistic, particularly when it comes to affairs of the heart, and also have real problems thinking conceptually about something that will happen in the future that is not within their current experience. (Trying to explain to my wife and brothers and sisters in law about
pensions and life insurance……….. aaaaarghhhhh!!!!!!). You should tell the truth gently and firmly to your Thai family in a way that demonstrates that you care about them too, and do not want to see an unhappy outcome. I'm sure you can find a way of painting a very black picture of what may happen when the whole thing turns to shit, as they most certainly will.
If you get it right, it may actually enhance your position and status within the family.
15. Ok, you must say something. Even if this fellow is not a close friend of yours, you have to tell him. He may be blinded by what he thinks is love and tell you to F— off, but at least you warned him. What if he totally freaks out when he finds out after he commits to this and hurts or God forbids, worse. Are you that callous after living there and having a good Thai experience that you don't give a shit.
Welcome to Thailand!
16. Len risks his life in Iraq and still does. He should start his life after the army in the best way he can. Personally I think that in this case he will not make it. Thailand is not such a wonderful place and need to know Thai people really deep and close. I think he is not ready. This is just an email but it’s about someone future life.
Maybe you should show him all the e-mail you got and tell him how many people try to save him from himself and his own mistakes.
17. You are honour bound to save this man!!!!!
19. Personal opinion. I spent two years in Iraq, your right it sucks and it seems to me this, future "brother in law" is heading down a bad road.
Tell him…but he will not believe you. I have been down this road before. I am married to a Thai and my friends (many come here from Iraq for R&R) tell me how lucky I am.
Listen, it's not easy under the best of conditions. Tell him, like I said before, he will not listen but at least you tried.
20. I think almost every single man who has visited the Land of Smiles has been through most of the same issues – that is women, money, and marriage requests. My "girlfriend" made me feel like I was a high school student in love for the first time. I almost fell for it – the wedding request that is. However, being a pessimist at heart actually helped me out. I also read a lot of the true wedding horror stories on Stickman's site. If you are really this guy's friend, tell him the truth (or what you perceive to be the truth). You owe him that much. He probably won't believe you if he is too deep into her, but it will at least put some reasonable doubt into him. Then you have done your part, and if he messes up you are not to blame (I told you so syndrome;). At the very least have him read the submissions on Stickman's site. If you read enough of them, you notice a sinister pattern of deceit on most Thai women (especially Bargirls!).
21. Good article, typical of what I also see here.
You MUST tell him! Why? Because love is blind, he cannot see and does not want to.
But he will, and it’s better know -before rather than after!
The Thais will stick together and LIE together. All the same to them. No compassion, no conscience.
He will thank you for it. Maybe later, but thank you nevertheless!
22. It's happened to me twice – first time I didn't tell, and when they found out and knew
that I knew, I lost a friend. Second time, I did say something – and I lost a friend. However, when they found out I was right, they came and apologized and we're still friends to this day.
Just ask yourself – if it were you in this situation, wouldn't you want someone to tell you? You know the guy, I don't – but I think most people would rather know in the long run.
23. A difficult issue here and just as well that this man is not a close friend. Of course you should speak to him. You can swear him to silence about your part but he will still 'out' you. Expect him to stop being your friend, your wife to be angry with you and her cousin to really, really hate you and still the marriage may go on as planned. But I urge you to tell him, expect some fire works. I have been in similar situations and when I did not speak up eventually I was scolded by my friend for not telling him, also when I did speak up , everyone was mad at me (What! My girl cheat on me? you must be out of your mind.) you can't win for losing.
I will follow up later with the conclusion of this sorry saga I need to try to get Len to see what’s really going on. That will be more of a challenge. This site has helped me out. Perhaps Len may read all this himself and put it all together, only time will tell. One thing for sure he is going to know, I just want to keep my life as peaceful as possible.
Excellent advice from all readers.