Stickman Readers' Submissions August 12th, 2005

What A Thai Doesn’t Get About Farang That Know Thai Women

What A Thai Doesn’t Get About Farangs That Know Thai Women

It was good to have another article from Jayson posted. My feelings were that this one was far superior to the first “mire of bigotry” article (expression copywrite Bkk Bruce). Judging by the amount of space Jayson spent this time telling
us what an egalitarian guy he really is I would have to assume that he realized, upon rereading his original article, what a bigoted diatribe it really was. Heck he even went out of his way to let us know he doesn’t mind a bit of brown
pork or gai torte on his fork. I did sometimes muse whilst reading Jayson’s original article, given his stated aversions to dark girls and fat white women, what would happen if he met a fat brown woman? Would his American personality or
his Thai personality dominate? Would he have a physical reaction, a complete breakdown of all bodily functions? A Jeckle and Hyde consummation.

For this reason I would like to call him BUM (a Bigoted Unpredictable Man). OK that was pretty lame but I have never been good with Acronyms. I would like to keep the acronym AWM (Angry White Man) for myself. Its not very catchy but it pretty
much sums up how I felt after reading the Jayson’s original submission. In response I’m going to try to sound less Angry – but still a little angry if that’s ok – just to add spice to an otherwise beaten to death
topic. Hey I don’t know about you but the acronym thing is not working for me. OK Jayson it is.

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My greatest struggle today was the title of my article. I originally wanted to call it “What a Thai doesn’t get about farangs that “don’t get” about Thai women something they think they get that Thais don’t
get and don’t know they don’t know” but it seemed a little cumbersome…. and to be truthful I’m not sure I got it? The title I mean. So I called it… well its at the top of the article and I’m still
not sure it makes any sense either.

I was surprised at the response my article received via email. I had expected vicious attacks analyzing and condemning some of the broader, more sweeping generalizations I had made in my angry white response (AWR). Instead I did not receive
one negative email. I even had a few fellows placing links to it on other websites. I could write down some of the reviews on the back cover and it would sell a book.

I found Jayson’s many confusions and contradictions when referring to coconut farang’s article and my own musings to be.. well amusing.. but, perhaps in the heat of the moment, understandable. To me they both sounded quite different
and discussed different issues but perhaps, as an author, I am too close to the trees to see the forest. In any case, I apologies to coconut farang. It seems the poor fellow was tainted with the same brush I was. Splattered in brown paint as it
were. I feel responsible and will punish myself privately later.

I don’t want to start analyzing the misinterpretations of my article and the erroneous reporting of Jayson’s latest post because I think it would detract from the good points. I really do think Jayson’s latest post is
a work of art, a work of beauty. An abrupt about face (so to speak) for sure but a worthy change of direction.

I don’t want to belabor the point but I found some of the backpedaling in the latest issue of Jayson weekly to be… timely. I would like, therefore, to kick a dead horse and return to his original post so as to clarify my own

“But believe me when I tell you that Thais will share with me stuff that they’ll NEVER share with farangs, not even if they’re married to one.”

This is what some people would like you to believe, but don’t, its either total BS or you’ve married the wrong woman. If you don’t trust your relationship with your wife over the one Jayson has with his mates then you
are in the wrong relationship for sure. Time to get out!

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“Most of the farangs in Thailand really don’t get it. They really don’t see how things are, how they’re perceived by the average Thai, men and women, what Thais talk about when farangs aren’t around, why
Thai people “smile” a lot..”

Again I don’t believe a word of this. There is a huge difference between “getting it” and choosing to “ignore it”. You can find a Thai, often one like Jayson who has spent a long period overseas, or a half
Thai or a very long term Thai expat, or a trusted so-so or Hi-so female Thai friend, who can answer most, if not all of your questions regarding Thai society and thinking. Live in Thailand for some years and you can get the rest and learn through
some often challenging experiences. Its not all that complex. Its actually pretty straight forward. The decision for the average farang after some time in Thailand is, how much to I buy into, how much to I ignore and how much do I go on resisting.
This varies person to person. I would like to return to this topic later and address it with respect the type of woman Khun Farang often finds himself with.

“So what you’re left with are the poor desperate types <girls> who really aren’t concerned about their reputation or what other people think because quite frankly, they have much more pressing problems.”

Total tripe in my opinion. Ive explained in my article why farang often end up with bar girls and I am going to go into more depth later in this article. I believe that with some careful planning and networking you can easily gain access
to the other “pool of women” that Jayson claims exclusive access to. The question that should be asked is – How many farangs want access to this pool of women? – and before you condemn me for saying it read on – more
on that later.

“So why is this “decent Thai guy” so out of reach for these “Isaan” type women?”

Here we go – ready for the ride.

“That farang men only date ugly Thai women.”

Obviously farang don’t think so. Ill keep mine thanks but then Im sure so too would many Hi – So Thais.

“his GF/wife will be the same Isaan-type woman that all the other farang guys run around with”

No really enough!

“It’s the Isaan factor again”

Sigh.. its becoming repetitive. I think we get the message.

“Believe me, these gals were almost always hideous, but I just usually nod in agreement. What the heck am I going to say?”

What can anyone say to this!

“Yet, his girlfriend is just oh-so-typical Isaan-type”

Ok Ok, Stop, stop! Enough ok.

I know what this last one means, my wife and I use to have long discussions which eventually lead to her no longer using the term. Jayson knows what it means. This is no Thai secret. What he means is small, dark and cheep. Its such a repulsive
expression its almost become an expletive. I have heard it expressed Oh-so-many times throughout the Kingdom.

Yes farang come to Thailand and frequent bars. Yes they parade around with women of questionable virtue. Blah blah blah. But hangon, don’t Thais do that too, well perhaps not in the street but certainly in barns, barber shops and glittery
swanky palaces such as Poseidon? Is that only some Thais? What about those girls in the school uniforms at the coffee shop? And where do those girls go that I see sitting in bars when they are not in the bars or out with their farang BFs? Do they
melt back into snow like landscape of Bangkok? Im confused. Anyway, good on them. As Jayson points out, there is another type of Thai girl available and the other type is probably 99% of the population. I strongly despise the comment that Thailand
is a country of whores. Its not. Most, actually nearly all of the girls of the Kingdom are very conservative and very honest. Let me talk alittle about why it is that Khun farang is not often seen with such women and give you another take on the

I have had many friends in Thailand, both Thai and farang, and one thing they rarely agree upon is what type of woman they want. That’s because they both have different tastes and agendas. In another life I frequented the bars of the
kingdom, I enjoyed the carefree life, the fun times, the crazy nights, the painful mornings. I didn’t want a stable relationship and did not want a woman of substance. I wasn’t looking for someone to take home and introduce to the
folks. I just wanted to have fun. I actually hurt several very nice Thai girls of good breading, much to my sadness, during this restless period of my life but Im not alone here. I know of many Thai and farang friends who have done similar, its
part of life. Of course after some time the bright lights fade, the beer sours and the constant shenanigans of dubious women wear thin, at least for some of us. Not all mind you, just some of us. I say this because I have friends who are like
ever-ready batteries, they just keep going and going and going. Ten, fifteen, twenty years. Non-stop. One guy I know is covered in scars from head to toe from all the broken bottles and knives with which some of the crazy women he dates have assaulted
him. This guy just loves it. When and if eventually the battery does run out (subtle pun!) he may look to other things in life. Perhaps its another country, perhaps it’s a woman of substance. Then perhaps he will want to tap into the type
of woman Jayson refers to and the one Jayson will tell you is only reserved for himself and his mates.

I had a good friend. He was an upstanding GQ looking guy as Jayson would say. He use to go crazy over these bar girls. Even fell in love with a few. This was long after the lights had faded for me so I had to ask him the question “why?
What happens if you marry one? Will she make a good wife? Don’t you want a good Thai girl?” “Nah” he replied. “Ill take my chances. I have good Thai girl friends, I meet them for lunch and for me they not exciting.
Not the kind of woman Im looking for. I enjoy the company of these other women. I just want to hang out and play pool and drink and these girls can do that with me. I just want to laugh and have fun”. Far from an isolated incident I found
this to be common. Would you ever hear a Thai say that? Not bloody likely. Some people, some farang and almost all Thai, believe that a nice girl hasn’t seen the inside of a bar and doesn’t want to and is happy at home or with family.
I admit to marrying the latter and Im happy about that but I can also respect the values of the guy who wants to dally on the wilder and sometimes darker side of life. Its their choice and that’s cool.

Then of course there are the guys with the Zimmer frames and the colostomy bags and god bless them. They provide employment for the more needy in Thai society and make Thailand a more colorful place to boot. Im not sure what options these
blokes have available but I don’t quite buy the oft heard “he like my dad” line, but hey, none of my business. Of course there are farangs that want, but cant get, a true blue Thai wholesome kindoff good girl, the one in a
pink cardigan with the Hello Kitty key ring. These guys certainly exist. Im not sure whether they are employing all means available to them or perhaps gunning too high but they seem to be out there. My argument would be that these guys are the
minority. In any case, it’s the guys that don’t want one of these girls that Im referring to and I suspect they are the majority visiting Thailand. They are certainly the ones you see parading around with their “friends”
and that create such eyesores for Jayson and his mates.

“Something interesting that I’ve noticed is that it’s almost pointless to be a good-looking farang guy in Thailand. Because you’re going to have access to the same pool of women as that fat, hairy, smelly, 55 year
old German guy sitting at the end of the bar. You’re not going to have access to the same type of women that I have – and I say this almost apologetically.”

In my opinion this statement is total and utter tripe. I believe good girls are relatively easily reached in Thailand. Your looks, age, body odor and foot care will all become factors outside of the bar. You can contact these girls through
the internet, in cafes, at Thai social events, through Thai friends, sometimes even in the street. You can network and make Thai friends and eventually they will introduce you to other Thais. I don’t think its any more difficult to find
than were I a decent looking Thai guy wanting to date a farang woman in the west. Probably easier because of the perceived ideal body type of lighter skin prevalent in Thailand and certainly prevalent in both of Jayson’s articles. Yes it
will broaden your playing field to learn Thai but I don’t think its absolutely necessary. Ill get to that later.

I use to help a friend with her Chulla homework. I actually use to write her entire submissions for her, she was doing an English masters. After about a year she offered to introduce me to many a HiSo Thai friend. Many of them spoke Thai
only, so of course if you are dead serious about dating a good Thai girl and want the broadest playing field then yes, you have to learn Thai. I prefer my girl to speak fluent English but more on that later. If you do go out with the good Thai
girl then of course its more effort, you have to be attentive, attend Buddhist ceremonies, family days and the like. Lots of farang guys just don’t want anything to do with all this and so date easier women. That’s fine. I wouldn’t
either if I was out for a holiday in the sun and a few drinks. And besides, despite all your efforts, many of the good people of the kingdom will still often think the worst of you. To many, you will still be Mr. John and she Mrs. Hooker regardless
of how many Thai norms you adhere to. Its even worse if she happens, by chance, to be brown skinned.

My point would be, don’t worry about what anyone in Thailand thinks other than your girl and her immediate family. I would love to retract this comment. I would love to tell you that everyone walking past you in the street really matters.
I would love to be able to tell you there is a source of wisdom that you can tap into. That there are oracles and gods and geniuses and mystics out there that can wave a wand and tell you what sort of girl you have and who you should have but
I haven’t met one yet. Its handy to listen to advice, sure, but take everything with a grain of salt and be careful to understand the prejudices that influence the judgment of your source (AKA Jayson). As much as we would all like to think
of ourselves as wonderfully objective, its rarely the case. Everyone always has an angle. So I stand by what I have said, have fun, Hoe in and remain wary until you understand the place!

Don’t worry what just any old fellow in the street thinks. Believe me, it’s a national obsession in Thailand to always be watching and judging other people and nothing we do today will change that. More often than not Thais
will get it completely wrong and misjudge each other based on poor cosmetic stereotyping. I have been with Thai friends when this has happened Oh-So many times. Worse, Thais are often very quick to lay judgment, often before even taking the time
to get to know someone. Im married to one and love her for all this so its not complete ignorance talking here. Again – not that theres anything wrong with it but how much of it do you want to go around worrying about. Sure Ill wear long
pants in 40 degree Bangkok weather if it makes everyone happy but start telling me about my girl and Id have to question your angle.

I was once innocently walking around with a friend and one old chap passed on the useful advice that he felt she was too short for me. This girl was a half Chinese friend with whom I had studied at university! And she was only a friend! Take
it with a grain of salt my friends.

I would also like to know how it is possible for a Thai man to ever know how a Thai woman behalves around a farang man. Local woman in any country almost always behave differently around western men. I can tell you this from extensive experience
in countries throughout Asia, the middle east and Africa. I have worked long periods in some of the most fundament and conservative countries in the world and when the women think they are alone with you in a room they can suddenly relax, the
tension dissipates immediately, they talk, they joke, they become alive. Thailand is no different. The women from conservative backgrounds can act quite differently around a western guy because they know they can. They know its not going to impact
their home life and they know they wont get judged. Perhaps its because we are known or perceived to have looser morals. Maybe they just figure they are not going to be judged. Im not sure, its just an observation. But the simple conditions of
this fact lead me to think that its impossible for a Thai man to know this unless he is willing to discuss the issue with a farang friend and I cant imagine that many are. Lets face it – read Jayson’s post and you will understand
why a Thai woman is not going to tell him if she is crazy about a Farang? Or would she prefer to be thought of as a whore.

“I’d be a little suspicious of an uneducated Thai woman who speaks English a little too well, but that’s another topic for another time”

I don’t believe you should be overly wary of a girl whose speaks English well but I take note of the exception of “uneducated”. My own experiences indicate that you should be careful about getting close to any girl in
Thailand until you understand Thailand but the quality of a girl’s English has little to do with her character. I have to tread careful with this one because I know there will be those who disagree. There are multiple avenues available
to Thai women to learn English in this day and age. There are the bars, the English schools, the movies, travel, sponsors, boyfriends, internet and friends to name a few. Where, or at least through what method (sponsor, bar, home, friend, school,
university), they learn English becomes apparent very quickly but even this is not a prime factor. There are many a dubious woman in Thailand who have learnt fine Queens English at an English school under external sponsorship programs (if you
catch my meaning) or overseas under suspect status and there are many fine ladies with good hearts that speak excellent English they learnt through their own means and out of bars. So how do you tell the difference? My argument would be, not through
her English. In my opinion, you need to look for other more subtle or possibly overt clues. As far as Im concerned unless you speak Thai very well then it’s a huge bonus if the girl does speak English and it doesn’t reflect on her
character in the slightest. Its even more important if you consider taking the girl back to farangland. The fantastically interesting conversations that seem terribly sophisticated when in Thailand can become rather stilted around at the gang
of mates back home unless her English is good. This might not matter to some but it does make it easier if the girl is fluent in English and you intend to live outside of Thailand. And my final comment on the subject would be that you need serious
commitment to learn Thai from outside of Thailand and I really cant be stuffed. I do however improve my appalling Thai whenever I return to Thailand because, if I have to be serious for a minute, it does improve and enrich your experience.

“if she says that she really likes farang guys and that’s what she’s looking for, don’t just walk away – freakin run.”

Is it just me, am I too sensitive, am I having a bad day? Again Id say bollocks. What she may mean is that she is interested in farang culture and farang ways and in learning the English language. She may be saying this so that you don’t
feel that she is only interested in Thais or she may be passing on a hint that she would be happy dating or even marrying a farang. Give her a chance. Perhaps shes telling you this because she thinks its what you want to hear and this of course
can have negative and positive connotations. Find out more about her. Don’t judge someone the minute you meet them on the first thing they say. Its not uncommon for girls to let a guy know early on that she is available and girls of another
culture often have to clear the air on matters such as this early on and may do so in a clumsy manner. Give her a chance. Some of these girls are the best, most open minded in my opinion.

What of farang women? I don’t think they are a bad lot at all but I do maintain that the options are far more limited in Farang land. Now why is that? Perhaps the question should be, why is it that there are so many available women
in Thailand? Thailand last I checked had a slightly higher ratio of women to men but the weighting increases as you enter the granny age as per the west. That means that, given the earlier age of marriage, there should be a few but not many women
left for Khun Farang, just the disparity, the dregs. Remember that Jayson and his mates have first pick (by his own testimony) so the best ones are off limits. But this goes contrary to my experience. In fact there is a bountiful supply of women
at all stratospheres of Thai society. Why is that? Why is Thailand full of so much opportunity? Could it be that farang men are not left with the dregs of the pond after all? That in fact we have access to a range of options and classes? Perhaps
not all Thais are as closed minded as Jayson. Perhaps there is hope after all!

Some people will tell you that only a Thai can ever understand Thailand. One of the things I liked about the Jayson’s recent submission is that he stated the similarity between Thai women and other women. Thailand is not a big impossible
mystery to comprehend. Its actually not that complex at all but does require some effort and perhaps some years to come to grips with. I figure it’s a bit like an onion. You just keep peeling away and you find another layer. You never quite
get to the centre but you certainly get closer. But I cant leave it there. Talking to some Thais I often wonder how much they understand each other. You have so many different peoples from different backgrounds and different beliefs. My experience
is that its like anywhere else, just because one person believes something don’t make it gospel.

Is Thailand a bigoted country? Well you have the Jayson’s original post and the list of comments posted from his article above to review. If that’s not enough examine Thai laws on immigration or foreign ownership. Heck even the current popular
(or not so) party is called Thai love Thai. If I started a party in the west called “Angry White guys love Angry white guys” what would people think? They would think it was either an extreme gay lobby group or a neo nazi party.
Shoot them in the ass! Anyway, Ill leave the final verdict to you. Is the west bigoted? Damn right it is and if I have to post evidence on that then you aint reading history and don’t follow current events! Does that make bigotry ok? I
mean surely Jayson’s fear of FWL (Fat White Ladies) carries some weight (ha ha) and surely if bigotry is acceptable in the west then it should be equally so in Thailand. In my opinion this argument is flat. Just because one group practices
bigotry doesn’t make it acceptable that others should. We should stand up and fight bigotry wherever and whenever we encounter it.

Does discrimination occur against dark skinned Issan girls or is this unfair hyperbole? Is it simply a cosmetic preferences as Jayson’s latest submission would have you believe? Again you have Jayson’s original comments above
which in my interpretation go beyond cosmetic. You can also visit the front office of any major company. Do you see many “Issan type” ladies in there? Perhaps that’s an educational thing or are they all out to lunch. Umm…
what about in showrooms, marketing, advertising, lets have a look. I guess cosmetic beauty plays a part in that line of work also. What about bars and 7/11’s. Yea yea now we can see them but hangon where did all those tall white skinned
beauties go. OK I guess we are getting close to the “R” word here. At the very least we are treading territory of discrimination. I guess concepts of beauty do cause discrimination after all. Most fat people can always go on a diet.
Brown people are generally stuck brown – a lovely color in my opinion – unless they want to indulge in any of the hideous skin whitening products available on the market these days. So shouldn’t we be rallying against stereotyping
of ugly by skin color and region of origin? Shouldn’t we train ourselves to look for beauty everywhere? Wouldn’t the world be a better more egalitarian place?

I do love Thailand and on the whole find the place very visit-able. I have a great affection for the Thai people. Heck I married one, and that’s perhaps why I become an AWM when I read posts like Jayson’s first.

I think on the whole, perhaps more so prior to the current administration, Thais are developing a fairly egalitarian society. I have several condos in Thailand and enjoy my time in them. I wish the best for Thai people, really I do. Can I
envision myself wanting to live there full time? Probably not. My reasons have to do with the limitations of the place, the living space, perhaps the language and perhaps some of the cultural issues. On the other hand I do have friends who love
the place and for one reason or another would never want to leave. The question Jayson posed as to why some farangs love the place and why some don’t has puzzled me for years. I don’t have an answer. Perhaps some of us just cant
go with the flow when we see something that conflicts with our principles, such as bigotry.

I would like to retract one statement. I had originally posted a comment that could be interpreted to mean bar girl English was better than English other Thais learn through English teachers. Of course this was a facetious fabrication and
completely heartless (given the profession of the author of this website). I would like to retract this comment without reserve or obligation and hope I did not offend any English teachers or anyone related to an English teacher or anyone remotely
connected with the English teaching profession. I would however like to add that having bills to pay can be a strong motivator to learning a language and I have been impressed by the language skills of some of the pool table attendants present
in many an insalubrious establishment throughout the Kingdom. I have been equally horrified by the incomprehensible ungrammatical gibberish practiced by some of the so called English Masters of the Kingdom. Im sure no more so than they of my Thai.
These are just reflections.

There are still issues I have with the Jayson’s latest submission. He still seems to think that all farang end up with whores. He still seems to think that there is a type of Thai lady that is out of reach to all bar (so to speak)
himself and his Hi so friends. My own experience would indicate that this is hogwash. He does seem to think its ok for Thais to worship light skinned women and that somehow the color of her skin reflects on the character of the woman but at least
he didn’t mention the “I” word. Finally, he maintains his irrational phobia of fat white women, perhaps there is a childhood incident behind that one.

Why Jayson’s article received a star is beyond me. Equally confused were the many farang who replied to my article via email. I respect Stick and he probably knows a hell of a lot more about Thailand than I do but I honestly believe
Jayson’s original article was a load of tripe with a scant few agates of wisdom scattered throughout. To me it reflected what is worst about Thailand rather than best. I found the second article far more palatable but no more enlightening.
If that’s “getting it” I’ll stay ignorant thanks.

On the sunny side. It appears that these discussions may have reformed, at least partially, one Thai person. If his latest article is anything to go by he may thinking twice before ranting off further bigoted so called idioms. With luck he
can start to spread enlightened wisdom to his clique of mates. Who knows, perhaps one day the poor, downtrodden and brown of Thailand may not find life so hard. Until that day comes Ill remain an AWM if that’s OK with Jayson. Save one life
and save the world in time.

Stickman's thoughts:

Comments to follow.

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