‘Tis Better to Give than Receive
By Caveman

Kuwait Hotel Guide

• Ghani Palace Hotel  • Hawali Continental Hotel  • Hawthorn Suites Hotel Kuwait  • Hussa House Hotel

This submission continues the dialog began by my submission “PUNT” and the numerous spin-offs it provoked.  It takes up the same argument as “PUNT”, but does so from the vantage point of a prospective entrant into the Thailand farang naughty nightlife: the woman.  This is just one man’s opinion.  If you think you can do better, send something into Stickman for us all to benefit from.

There have been numerous reply subs to my “PUNT”, where I took up the subject matter of the ethics and advisability of involvement in the mongering scene in Thailand from the perspective of the punter.  Some of them added value in some way, while I thought 1 or 2 were pointless.  Some of the conclusions and assumptions drawn from my submission, to include by the StickMeister, are not valid.  The biggest misunderstanding is that it evidently appears I am claiming there is no damage to women who are a part of the industry.  Indeed, the statement “No one is hurt” is misleading.  Let me qualify.  No one is hurt in any ordinary individual engagement between punter and woman.  Of course there is long-term damage to the woman: on that there can be no argument.  My assertion is that the damage is not necessarily caused by any individual punter; therefore, the morality of partaking in the naughty nightlife does not violate my definition of morality.  The damage is SELF-INFLICTED by the woman’s being a part of the industry. And this is her election, despite the ravings of Bangkokreal.  She may be desperate, she may even have been coerced, but I have never seen Stickman or anyone else cite particular examples of Thai ladies they encountered where a woman was forced into the sex industry in Thailand or in PI.  This would constitute human trafficking.  There is a difference between coercion and force, and exaggerations are unwelcome.  If a woman is hell bent for leather to keep her dignity intact, she will avoid selling her body.

I am well aware of the poverty that exists in some parts of Thailand.  I’ve seen it firsthand.  Check out my Thai Journal 1.5 for details.  The reader will note that the LIBERAL way is to try in some perverted fashion to blame westerners for the plight of the poor (in the US, we call them the “Blame America First” crowd.).  And to add fuel to the fire, we, especially westerners, are responsible for propagating the misfortunes of prostitutes by patronizing their immoral activities and hiring them.  I reject this with prejudice.  Sure many punters are scumbags and I am embarrassed to be one of them.  But as long as the monger conducts himself as a gentleman, treats the lady with respect, compensates her fairly, even buys her a meal and/or gifts, does not hurt her physically, etc, I cannot see the damage he is PERSONALLY causing.  And that was the point in “PUNT”.  It is not meant to be a grand treatise on prostitution, discussing the long term damage done to women after extensive participation in the industry.  While I believe I have a good deal of knowledge on the subject, if you want an aficionado, I defer to Korski: the Master Blaster.  Again, “PUNT” was intended to offer a point of view on the morality and advisability of any one individual in an act of mongering.  There is probably always damage to the woman as a result of exposure to ALL punters, or the industry in general; however, this does not change the morality equation.  She accepts this by entering the trade. <This is a flawed argument because she cannot accept what she does not realise may happen - Stick>

Spin-offs from “PUNT” claim I’m rationalizing my own behavior.  You’ve got a wrong number.  I am, at most, as Korski terms it, a “soft” monger.  The arguments in “PUNT” are not necessarily based on my own behavior.  Check my Thai Journals (there are 9) if you want specifics.  One thing you’ll note is that not only did I not even barfine anyone on my last visit, but that on many occasions, I don’t even have sex with the bargirl.  Most of the time, same as Dana, I’d prefer an in-room massage.  How many genuine mongers have ever traveled to Thailand for 19 days in country and not paid a single barfine?

Another unsubstantiated claim is that I’m being hypocritical by stating that it’s not good for a guy to engage in mongering under the age of 30, but I seem to be implying that it’s OK for a woman to become a prostitute at that age.  Where exactly do I say that?!  From what you are about to read, I don’t think it advisable for a woman of ANY AGE to enter the industry.  And the earlier she enters, the more severe the damage is likely to be.

Here’s a point I’ve made before in my journals, but other than Stickman, I don’t see anyone else ever mentioning it: the process of NEGOTIATING for services.  This is one of the most unsavory aspects of the mongering scene.  If you could entirely eliminate this single aspect, you’d go far in dignifying the practice for both parties (but I don’t see it happening).  Other than on my first 2 visits and being a newbie to the scene, I cannot remember ever negotiating anything with a woman.  Some may think the argument is elementary, but negotiation, which reduces what could be even a romantic encounter to a hardcore business transaction, loses serious style points.  By negotiating the precise details of what the woman is willing to do and/or what you expect her to do, you really are validating the pundits’ criticisms and treating her as a piece of meat.  Although I defend the morality of the situation even as the practice eschews me, I don’t personally condone asking the woman questions like:

How much for a blowjob?  Will you swallow?  How much extra do I have to pay you for XXXXX?  Can I fall asleep with my cock in your mouth?  Will you take it up the ass?

In avoiding negotiations with bargirls, I take it to an extreme.  Money is a taboo topic for the Caveman in conducting a “bar interview”.  Believe it or not, so is sex.  I treat the situation exactly as I would if I were trying to pick up a “regular” woman from a bar in the town of Tucumcari, New Mexico (and thereby hangs a tale!).  In such a situation, would you go into detail about sexual specifics?  If yes, you are either drunk, very well acquainted with the woman already, have no respect for the woman, or have achieved a ripe age where such discussions between (overly) mature adults are actually the norm.  I mean, unless you are well acquainted with the woman and maybe even have a sexual history with her, hardcore discussion of sex acts is not likely to be on the agenda.  So for me, sex and money are never discussed.  If the woman brings up money and asks how much I’m going to give her as a tip, I smile and walk away.  But if things have gone far enough and I decide to pay barfine for a woman, all I’ll do is wait until morning, and when she’s in the rest room, I’ll place her tip money on her handbag.  Upon seeing it, she’ll usually give a “khap khun kha”, smile, and depart.  The dignity is maintained all around.  I guarantee you the woman appreciates this approach.  It minimizes any discomfort in the situation for both of you.  Do you really think these women want to be crudely propositioned on what they will or will not do?  I’ve never had a problem with my approach.  You could say that everything is “understood” going in.  We both know the deal.  But for me there is a difference for the woman and for the punter.  If every single punter operated thusly, I’d venture to say that the negative impact to the women over the long term would be greatly lessened.

I’m also very much against coercing the woman in any way.  For me, coercion of a woman, especially a young one, could constitute immoral behavior on the part of the monger depending on the nature of the coercion and how forcefully you press your demands.

My conclusions from “PUNT” are that it is neither immoral nor inadvisable to engage in the mongering scenario in Thailand from the punter’s perspective.  There are caveats to this.  If you have not read “PUNT”, its review may reward the kind reader.

MORALITY.  If I were a Thai female considering entry into the farang naughty nightlife, what exactly are the ethics involved?  The morality can be weighed on numerous fronts that parallel those laid out in “PUNT”.  I’ll abbreviate here, as many of the points I made in “PUNT” apply equally.

Religion plays no part in the question of morality by the same rationale elaborated upon in “PUNT”.  I don’t care what her religion is: it is not a factor.  Marc Holt’s assertion that my root beliefs are based in religion is untrue.  I am an unapologetic atheist.  When discussing morality, religion plays no part in REAL life as it is practiced.  Religionists are largely hypocrites.  This includes the males as well as the females: both sides of the monger equation.

As far as harming oneself, and from the standpoint of the woman entering the scene, it does not necessarily violate my acid test of morality: An act or practice is moral/ethical if it does not hurt, damage, or do identifiable harm to another person(s) (or animals), or does not force another to perform an act against their will.  As a woman, my entering the prostitution scene does not necessarily harm others.  Of course, there are some unsavory accompaniments of the actions of some bargirls in the scene, such as stealing from customers, poisoning their drinks to put them to sleep and then rob them, lying to them, scamming them, baiting multiple sponsors each of whom believes he is exclusive, pushing them off balconies in Pattaya hotel rooms, hypnotizing them to surrender all their hard-earned cash, placing razor blades in their clap-trap to slice up a man’s schwanzy...the list is a long one of which most Stickman readers are aware.  However, these immoral actions do not necessarily have to be part of the scene.  You can have one without having the other.  You can certainly have a 100% ethical bargirl.  It doesn’t even matter whether one really even exists: the fact that one can theoretically exist makes the practice itself MORAL on paper.  Nit or Noi can be a bargirl without necessarily having to engage in unethical behavior.

ADVISABILITY.  In assessing the advisability of entering the Thailand farang naughty nightlife as a Thai female, it’s a simple discussion.  As mentioned briefly above, from the standpoint of a woman cogitating entering the prostitution industry in Thailand, I would consider it inadvisable for ANY woman to enter the trade.  Damage to oneself is almost inevitable.  And the earlier the age she enters the industry, the worse the damage is likely to be.  The risks are known to us all and include:

- Risk of contraction of STDs

- Violation of tenets of Thai culture (and probably all other world cultures) and becoming an outcast in your own culture

- Surrender of feminine dignity

- Highly increased risk of acquiring destructive habits such as smoking, excessive drinking, drug use, even getting sleazy tattoos that will make it more difficult to leave the industry, as they effectively label you as a sleazy whore.  In fact, this is one of the biggest negatives for entering the industry: the woman may eventually wish to leave it and pursue a more wholesome job.  How will she account for her time in the industry?  This is not something with which she can be honest with a prospective employer.  Unless she wishes to simply work a menial factory job where a resume or job history is of no import, the damage to her professional career will be permanent.  Her upward mobility is damaged irreparably.

- Although there are decent punters out there, and I hold Stickman readers to be among that lot, the group of punters as a whole is highly unsavory, especially in Pattaya.  Take a look at some of the rabble down there in that cesspit.  Getting involved with these guys as a bargirl involves serious risk if not to your own physical safety, then in many other ways.  For instance, many of them are drug addicts.  Becoming involved with a drug addict could embroil you in an affair with the boys in brown.  Being mistreated, disrespected, and even beaten are distinct possibilities for these poor ladies.  This will eventually lead to a callous outlook toward sex and men overall.  This is not a positive outlook for any woman to have.  Yet it is almost inevitable for those who enter the industry.

Of course, the list above is just partial.  In the event that a woman chooses to ignore all of the above risks and potential pitfalls and still enters the industry, my assertion is that the choice to become a prostitute is an adult decision which entails acceptance of the consequences which result.  For the most part, she has only herself to blame for the outcome.

HELL BENT FOR LEATHER.  For those ladies who are hell-bent for leather in joining the naughty nightlife scenario in Thailand regardless of the advisability factors laid out above, being such a female, what might be some considerations I might want to keep in mind to minimize the inevitable damage while maximizing my profit, which is essentially the reason I’m there?

Probably one of the best reasons for a woman to enter the industry is simply to meet a guy, and hopefully one who can improve her lot in life and that of her family.  Might not be the best method, but it is a method.  You could really say the same for women seeking men in the Thailand farang naughty nightlife as vice versa: so many men look for love in the bars, and they are certainly looking in the wrong place if they’re seeking a wife! (Even in cases where you find a lady who has just entered that industry yesterday and has yet to be hired, you are dealing with a woman with highly questionable judgment.  You are dealing with a woman who has made the decision to sell her body for money.  For me, it doesn’t even matter if she’s yet managed to follow through on this even once in the case where you “rescue” her.  In time, such a woman, a woman with that type of judgment, is likely to make a poor wife to say the least.).  The type of guy she’s likely to end up with is not promising.  The group of mongers as a whole is not the most savory group, that’s for certain.  So many of them have so much baggage accompanying their lives.  “Decent” punters are probably the exception.  (Then again, I guess you might even say that about people overall!).  Sure there are some decent punters, but the odds do not favor her in the transaction, especially in Pattaya.  Yet it is in her interests to find a decent suitor, leave the industry quickly, marry the guy, and thereby get her meal ticket punched.  This is definitely in HER best interests...of course depending on the man involved.  Get in, get out, and get on with things. The longer the woman remains in the industry, the more difficult it will be to exit.  It becomes a way of life.

It is also in her best interests to get herself a sponsor or even multiple sponsors.  In fact, I’ve heard tell of women who will actually avoid expats because an expat cannot become a sponsor (moron).  Remember that she is in the industry to make money, and usually with a pointed disregard for other factors. It may not be moral, but it may be in HER best interests (advisable from her standpoint) to acquire multiple sponsors, each of whom believes himself to be exclusive.  It may be advisable to lie to sponsors and continue to work the bar to make money in addition to whatever the idiot is sending.  A woman can probably carry on this practice for years, changing one sponsor for another as they, one by one, eventually realize her dishonesty.  It can be like a revolving door of sponsors.  Being acutely aware of the gullibility and naivety of the pool of sponsors, I’m quite confident that the more attractive women can easily pull this off.  Since it is my belief that sponsors are all fools, it may be immoral for the woman to be dishonest, but it’s still in her best financial interests.  Also, you could say that the immorality is in some way diminished.  The guy is a bloody idiot: he should know better.  If you’re that gullible, you’ve got it coming to you.

How to minimize the risk of STD contraction?  This is probably the toughest nut to crack for the lady.  She can insist on use of a condom, and that can do much to minimize her risk.  On this she should never waiver.  And on this count you should never try to coerce her to go bareback!  You might be free of STDs, but the impact on the woman is such that it might become habit forming to allow mongers to go bareback.  OK, even if she insists on condom use on every occasion, the risk of STD contraction through performance of oral sex is still present.  My understanding is that the risk of contraction through the mouth is not nearly as high as being penetrated vaginally or anally without a condom.  Saliva kills many harmful viruses prior to their entering the blood stream, to include the HIV virus.  In fact, the HIV virus cannot even exist in open air.  It is a fragile virus and requires a very stringent set of conditions in which to thrive.  Anyway, to continue, the risk of STD contraction through the performance of oral sex by the woman might be relatively low, but there is still risk.  For me it would be unacceptable.  The risk grows with repetition of the practice.  Each blowjob is a roll of the dice.  I honestly don’t see how this risk can be eliminated.  Most guys want a blowjob.  My belief is that she’s on the hook to deliver one, especially if she promised the guy.  A BJ is a man’s best friend (no, my dog’s name is not BJ).  This is probably the biggest reason for a woman to stay out of the industry.

My conclusion is that it is not a violation of ethics for either a man or woman to enter the Thailand naughty nightlife industry.  For the man, it is not necessarily inadvisable.  However, for a woman, and despite her level of poverty, there are certainly more wholesome choices for her to make.

Stickman's thoughts:

I agree entirely with your conclusion.

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