PUNT
by Caveman
Japan Hotel Guide • Rindoko Royal Hotel • Comfort Hotel Central International Airport • Asaya Kinugawa Spa Resort • Niseko Northern Resort Annupuri This submission was inspired by and weighs in on the mongering discussion introduced by “Mongers in Denial” by Y Fever. It provides a slice of my personal philosophy on the morality and advisability of partaking in the Thai nightlife scene as a monger, or punter. Specifically, as a male from a western country, is it ethical to go to Thailand (or PI) to exploit the farang nightlife industry? Whether or not it’s moral, is it advisable?
Y Fever’s submission is interesting and I really don’t disagree with much he has to say. He’s obviously a decent guy and a productive man about town. There should be more like him, especially in Thailand. We’d be much better represented for sure. This notwithstanding, some of his quotes seem to infer that being a monger or being a part of the industry somehow means you are not a part of Thai society. More than one quote from his sub indicates that the P4P scene is not a part of “regular” or “real” Thai society. (In fact, today’s weekly column from Stickman seems to endorse this assertion.) I don’t see it that way. My view is that the scene itself IS a part of Thai society as much as any other element. It might not be a part that the authorities like to brag about, but it is a part nonetheless. It’s part of Thai commerce, and certainly a lot of money changes hands as a result of the effects of the industry. No doubt the baht gets a boost solely from the bump it gets from sex tourists and sexpats. Anyway, if Y Fever means it is not a wholesome, accepted (he does mention this) or respected part of Thai society, that’s another matter. I don’t think it’s any more accepted/respected than prostitution in the US by those outside the industry. But as far as being part of Thai society, even the ya-ba scene is part of Thai society. Thai society, or any society for that matter, involves both the positive and negative aspects. I do agree wholeheartedly with his assertion that so many mongers in Thailand are in denial. Through their own shame and embarrassment of being a part of the sex scene, they try to deny it, even when they’re anonymous or speaking with someone of no import they know they’ll never see again. Instead of taking ownership of whom and what they are, and maybe even having a sense of humor about it, I guess they’re even dishonest with themselves. For me, I admire the guy who, when you ask him why he’s retired as an expat in Thailand, gives the reply “I’m fucking my way to the grave.” Like my Papa told me, denial (the Nile) is not a river in Africa. I also agree with his criticisms of guys who do nothing outside of the industry, which reflects shallow behavior. I mean, to each his own, but there are other things to do in Thailand. Why not expand your horizons? However, this is not a morality issue.
MORALITY. There are strong opinions on the ethics of those who play a part in the Thailand naughty nightlife. This is a very conspicuous topic: one likely to get people fired up. You won’t find many who are indifferent to the mongering scene in Thailand. People become emotional about it regardless of their opinion. The vast majority of Stickman readers would probably have no scruples about the morality on the subject. But the vast majority of people in general are not Stickman readers (unfortunately. Maybe we should try to change that.).
For those who believe mongering to be immoral, their rationale for their beliefs differs, and they can be categorized into groups. My (least?) favorite category of those who believe it immoral is the religionist. The fact is that every single religion I know of considers partaking in P4P, whether in Thailand or any other country, to be wrong, or sinful, and therefore immoral. Regardless of any other considerations, you are automatically immoral and unethical in the eyes of the religionist if you’re a monger. I just love it when they quote the bible as a reason to abstain from mongering. What a joke. Although I haven’t done a survey, I’d say that that the vast majority of mongers is religious, or at least claim to be followers of some particular religion. They are therefore hypocrites. Their religion is one of convenience and bears no correlation with the way they live their physical lives. Most Jews, Christians, and probably almost all other religions simply allege belief in God because of the fact that they were raised from birth to believe and have never given the matter any serious thought. It’s a simple case of brainwashing and an inability and lack of desire to think independently. Add to this the fact that that they’re threatened with “eternal hellfire and damnation” if they dare to disbelieve, and you’re left with a bunch of sheeple. So what does the average parrot-head religionist do? Throughout his life, he gives it very little thought at all, but out of pure expedience, proclaims his steadfast belief in a God, a Creator. Why tempt fate? Proclaiming to believe is like an insurance policy against eternal hellfire. They let sleeping dogs lie, never bothering to challenge their own beliefs in earnest. For me, I worship the truth above all, regardless of where that path leads me, and in every single instance. I am a scientist.
The fact that religion is all a crock of shit is revealed by the fact that religionists, with few exceptions, almost never follow their chosen religion’s teachings. This includes mongers in Thailand, to say the least. All of a sudden, they conveniently forget their creed. My conviction, and despite the fact that you’ll never get religionists to admit it openly, is that they’re entirely ignorant of whether there is a Creator of the Universe, or they really don’t believe anything at all in their heart of hearts. In reality, religion alone has no place in deciding the morality of mongering. Religion is an invention of man, simple as that. It’s an evil and invented way to enslave and control SHEEPLE. Religion itself is, for me, more unethical than mongering (and that’s assuming mongering is unethical, which I do not believe it is.). It’s a crime against the intellect and human liberties. How many people have been killed “in the name of God”? And how many have been killed because of mongering? Try that on for size!
For Caveman, in deciding whether an act or practice is moral/ethical, there’s a simple acid test. An act or practice is moral/ethical if it does not hurt, damage, or do identifiable harm to another person(s) (or animals), or does not force another to perform an act against their will. (You can also make an argument that wanton destruction of elements in nature is immoral, but I don’t want this to be a book.). The most important aspect is that the act or practice not be achieved against the will of another, with their being an integral part of the consummation of the act or practice. This must be emphasized because there are those eccentrics that enjoy masochism/kinky sex where you beat one another, and shit like that. They WANT to be hurt. With mongering, you have a case of 2 consenting adults engaging in an act of sex. No one is hurt, and no one is being forced to engage in an act against their will. Therefore, on these grounds, you cannot say that mongering is immoral.
Another moral proving ground for mongering is the legal ground. Since mongering is technically illegal in Thailand and almost everywhere else in the world, you are breaking the law. (How dare you?!) Regardless of other considerations, is it immoral to break the law? In the majority of cases, I’d say the answer is “Yes”. Take shoplifting, for instance. Many people consider shoplifting to be a victimless crime and therefore not immoral/unethical. They are, however, full of shit and in denial. Scumbags will find all sorts of creative ways to justify their actions when they are intent on doing something they know to be unethical. The victim is the shop owner. Indirect victims include us all, since the effect of shoplifting tends to cause price increases by making it more expensive for shop owners to conduct business. The cost of goods sold must be passed on to the consumer: you. How about running a red light at 3 AM with no traffic around for miles? How about mongering? It is against the law. But the fact is that for me, the law is unreasonable. Each law must be evaluated on its own merits and tested with my definition of morality above. If no one is hurt, it should not be illegal. We can argue the point all day long, but the genesis of the law, I believe, has political and religious roots. The majority of legislators and their constituents happen to be religionists; they therefore outlaw prostitution. In reality, prostitution and mongering is generally viewed as immoral because of the fact that many of its accompaniments are highly unsavory. Drunks, sleazebags, crack whores, STD’s, back-alley BJ’s, etc. Many of the negative facets of society that mongering carries are of such an unsavory character that mongering itself is viewed as an evil. This is unfortunate, because I believe this does not necessarily have to be the case. The state of Nevada has sterilized the practice for sure (although I have never availed myself of the services of whores in the Silver State.). But does all this make mongering itself immoral? Some of the same lawmakers who decree prostitution illegal can probably be found waltzing down Pattaya’s infamous Walking Street. Never trust a politician.
Another morality argument, and probably the strongest, lies in the contention that you’re damaging the woman and maybe even yourself. Well, as far as damaging oneself, that does not fall under the definition of immorality provided above, and therefore cannot be immoral. Even if you are damaging yourself, I don’t hold that to be immoral. You are on moral ground even in the case where you kill yourself. You own your body and can therefore do with it as you wish. If quality of life is such that continuing one’s existence is not desired, then by all means pay a visit to Dr. Kevorkian. Not to sound callous, but you’re probably doing yourself and humanity a favor, and I include myself in this assessment. If my quality of life ever becomes nonexistent, or the continuance of my life is such that the “misery index” in my life exceeds the “pleasure index”, and I believe this scenario irreversible, especially due to a medical condition, I’ll take matters into my own hands and relieve my family of a burden. It is not a morality issue. In fact, suicide can actually be a courageous decision.
OK, what about damage to the woman? There are loads of submissions on Stickman addressing this topic. Aren’t you damaging her, especially in Thailand where you have a young woman who was probably in abject poverty and therefore selected this profession as a means to put food on the table for herself and her family? Aren’t you exploiting a poor farm girl in a 3rd world country by traveling to Thailand as a sex tourist? Horse shit. What it boils down to is that you have a woman who has freely chosen the trade. It’s not the fault of the monger that she’s poor. In the absolute vast majority of cases in PI, Thailand, and the world around, the choice to become a prostitute is an adult decision which entails acceptance of the consequences which result. The monger is actually doing the woman a favor by patronizing her. Just treat her well, don’t hurt the poor girl, and compensate her fairly. And treat her with respect and not like a piece of meat. I mean, be a decent guy and jam a burger down her throat before jamming your cock there. Allow her some dignity. Be cognizant of the fact that she would probably prefer other circumstances to make a living, and that the decision to become a bargirl was probably not an easy one for her to make (although many do begin to enjoy the lifestyle). Anyway, I just cannot see the immorality in the issue on the part of the monger. Any damage done, for instance in the well known case of the hardened bargirl who no longer sees men and sex the same way for the rest of her life, is self-inflicted and not directly attributable to the monger. <I disagree very strongly with this point. You might not be able to blame one individual, but collectively, there is an argument against all of the customers for the damage these girls often suffer. More on this in my final comments - Stick> If there is immorality in prostitution, it lies in those rare cases where there are women who are literally forced into the trade by predators who actually hold them captive and force them to perform for their own profit; or even their own families, who may send the woman into the sex trade to put bread on the table for the family. However, even then, unless the punter has knowledge that the woman is being forced into the trade, the immorality is not the punter’s: it lies with those who forced the woman into the traffic.
I’ll tell you where the immorality of mongering lies. As indicated above, it lies in the other negative aspects that often accompany the Thailand bar scene: the drunkenness, disorderly conduct, disrespectful behavior toward the women and other mongers, violence, and obnoxiousness exhibited by so many punters. They give the rest of the group a bad name by tarnishing the image of ALL punters through their drunken escapades, mistreating the ladies, starting fights, disrespect of Thai women, etc. People start to draw unwarranted conclusions of the group as a whole. There are a good number of punters who are decent, regular guys in Thailand and PI who are just out for a good time. Boys will be boys, and boys like sex, plain and simple. Mongering should be considered separate from the unfortunate elements that often accompany the scene. You can have one without necessarily having the other.
One possible ground on which mongering may be considered slightly immoral is the case where you have an obese punter that targets the slim, petite bargirl. This is bound to cause physical pain to the poor girl if he gets on top of her. True, she has the privilege of declining the transaction, but I cannot help but opine that the fat sack of shit should probably “pick on someone his own size”. Go rent yourself a fat pig.
One other case where I believe mongering can be considered unethical is the case where the monger is cheating on his wife. Many don’t consider this to be unethical, but according to my definition above, the wife is the victim. However, the act of mongering is just incidental here: it’s the sex act that matters. You simply have a case where a man is betraying his wife and dishonoring his wedding vows. He could be screwing a non-bargirl, and the ethics of the situation are identical.
Summary on morality of mongering: my opinion is that there is no immorality involved in your typical mongering or prostitution scenario. Those who argue immorality are either liberal whackos with no life (such as the National Organization of Women (NOW)), religionists (who are mostly hypocrites anyway), or just simple buffoons without a clue (a large subset).
ADVISABILITY. Aside from the issue of morality, there are other variables at play in deciding whether or not to engage in mongering. Some guys simply don’t give a rat’s ass even if it is immoral (which it’s not). But even if it’s not a morality issue, is it advisable? Is it in your best interests to engage in the act of mongering?
There are legal considerations in most western countries which affect advisability of dabbling in the flesh trade. However, these concerns are largely nonexistent in Thailand and PI.
I do believe that partaking in the monger scene under the age of, say, 30, is not advisable. The fact is that whether you are in Thailand or not, once you realize that beautiful women can be had like candy, this could affect the way you interact with the fairer gender forever after. Of course it’s all a question of degree. We must be careful not to carry things to an extreme and, subsequent to engaging in mongering, to treat women in such a way that you become dysfunctional in your interactions with the fairer gender. I guess what I’m saying is that I believe it’s OK to regard women with a bit of a “give-a-shit attitude” (as they do with us in the west), but if you carry things too far, this cannot be in YOUR best interests. It will simply make you an outcast. Prior to an age where a man reaches a certain level of maturity, entry into the P4P scene is not advisable. To quote from a previous submission, “The kick your manhood can get initially can be sabotaged in the long run if you lose your aggressiveness and will to pursue (pardon the expression) normal women because your libido has been satisfied elsewhere.” This assertion has some accuracy for the immature punter. Having the P4P experience at too early an age may result in a man whose cynicism, scorn, and disrespect toward women may be extreme to the point that it affects his ability to cope with women in general. <Surely this related to women who enter the industry at a young age too - Stick> I mean, a healthy dose of cynicism is good, but whenever you get off the charts with any quality, good or bad, it’s likely to cause functional problems in your life.
What about the possibilities of the contraction of HIV and other STDs? Is this reason enough to abstain from partaking in the P4P scene in Thailand? For me, this is what condoms are for. I mean, there’s a risk with almost any endeavor. Condoms can seriously mitigate risk of STD contraction, whether in the P4P scene or even if you’re picking up some floozy from a local bar. Also, my understanding is that contraction of STD’s via the woman providing oral sex may be present, but it’s minimal. She has a better chance of contracting something from you than vice versa. The woman is always more at risk than the man due to the fact that the man is the one that enters the woman’s body (unless you’re a fagot and therefore suck dick and take it up the ass.).
One compelling criticism is that prostitution is addictive and causes damage to the punter’s psyche and behavior patterns. It makes the punter less likely to want to pursue non-prostitutes because that requires “actual work”, enthusiasm, and mental alacrity required to court a woman. In my mind, a guy should be able to pursue an available woman in “his own league”. This is why I don’t think mongering to be a healthy practice for those not yet fully matured. My thoughts are that guys under 30 should be chasing women around in bars, night clubs, malls, beaches, etc., and not in the naughty nightlife venues of Thailand. The danger is that if you dabble too early, you’re likely to develop views towards women that may genuinely interfere with your future ability to develop a meaningful relationship. For those of us who have reached full maturity, that may not be a problem; we may be lost causes, as funny as that sounds. More accurately, we can (hopefully) assimilate mongering into our lives without necessarily allowing it to have the same adverse effect as it would on a youngster. But for those youngsters out there, it’s best to preserve all options. I mean, somebody’s gotta’ procreate and continue the human race. It ain't gonna’ be the Caveman. Dog forbid there should be more cromagnon-men/women.
Soliciting of prostitutes is addictive. Is yours an addictive personality? If yes, it would probably not be advisable to engage in P4P in your home country. This may lead to your solely going after prostitutes because it’s easier. It could also become an expensive proposition unless you have deep pockets. I have personally never solicited a prostitute in any place other than the LOS and would never consider it here in the US. In fact, even the venues in Thailand have largely lost their appeal for me, at least in my willingness to pay barfines. While I have no problem going to the bars with a friend, checking out the sexy women, and buying lady drinks for a kind, bubbly little thing to sit on Daddy’s lap, the chances of my paying a barfine today are slim. My last visit to Thailand found me paying zero barfines.
There have been lots of submissions on Stickman criticizing mongers for being losers in that they no longer have an ability to pursue women in their homeland. They are losers because they have not kept pace with society itself and therefore must lower themselves by traveling to 3rd world countries to exploit destitute whores who have no other option other than to sell their bodies to foreign mongers. Well, mongers are individuals, and individuals cannot always be categorized. I’d say it’s true in some cases and untrue in others. What about those for which this statement is true? These are the “losers” and have not been able to keep themselves in a condition to court “normal” women in their home country. It should be obvious that the advisability of partaking in mongering for such individuals is highly recommended. What is there to lose? What damage will be done? Are they supposed to give up sex forever? And for those who can pick up a woman on a whim (winners), again I can see no damage done from the practice of mongering. They don’t have to put up with a lot of the BS associated with relationships nowadays, especially with the attitudes of western women in mind. That’s their choice, and I respect it.
Other than simply sex or company, there are concrete benefits to be obtained from mongering in Thailand and PI. Many will tell you all the psychological damage it will cause you, but there is a flip side to this. The fact is that you will probably never appear too needy to western women, needy equating to desperate or even groveling. It’s possible that you’ll even be more laid back interfacing with western women, as you couldn’t give a rat’s ass what they do or say. This has been the case for me, anyway. My assertion is that the practice of mongering in the LOS may make you appear less desperate than otherwise because of the internal cognizance of the fact that if this or that woman doesn’t come around, it really doesn’t matter too much. You have the mental fallback of the knowledge of what you can do in Thailand. As an analogy, don’t you always drive best just after renewing your car insurance? Isn’t it easier to spend $10 knowing you have $200 more in your pocket? In my opinion, this is a good outlook to have when engaging with today’s western woman. Don’t ever show signs of desperation.
At the risk of sounding hateful toward western women, which would be counter-productive, another benefit to be obtained from Thailand mongering is mental satisfaction. There is mental satisfaction to be obtained from knowing that you simply do not NEED western woman AT ALL. They are entirely superfluous. Fuck them and their attitudes. There’s no need to be a boot licker while SE Asia exists, and here we’re talking about all SE Asia countries and not just Thailand. Asian chix dig us. We are a commodity. For some of them, we are as sexually exotic to them as they are to us. Take advantage of the fact. Catch Asian Fever (of course I’m preaching to the choir for Stickman readers.).
Phet notes in one of his (outstanding) submissions that the mere mention of trips to Thailand automatically assigns you a negative categorization in today’s western countries. If you’ve made numerous trips to Thailand, you are automatically guilty of a thousand different crimes in the eyes of many westerners. This applies especially in today’s PC western world. It is therefore highly advisable that if you choose to monger, you should keep your escapades in the strictest of confidence, reporting it to just about no one of any import in your life. (Note that this is different from denial.) There is simply no good that can arise from publicizing your exploits in a non-anonymous fashion. Those with whom you opt to reveal your exploits should be selected with care. I’d automatically eliminate just about all women, except those for whom you have no respect or actually want to insult or get rid of (LOL. I liken this to farting in the presence of an unwanted bitch.) I’d also eliminate any workmates. Ask yourself the question, “What possible damage can arise by this person knowing that I’m a Thailand monger?” Think it through. If there is identifiable damage that can arise, you’re better off shutting your pie hole. There’s simply nothing to be gained. There is a high likelihood that you will be discriminated against if the knowledge comes to light. People will accuse you of all sorts of nonsense and you will be guilty until proven innocent. Unless you are independently wealthy and basically could not give a rat’s ass what anyone thinks of you, discretion is highly advised. Note very importantly that it’s not the mongering that’s inadvisable, it’s the publication of the fact that’s likely to cause damage to either your reputation, or worse in the case of the work site....you could ultimately lose your job. You’re likely to be ostracized. Yes, I know it’s unfair: life is unfair. Adapt to it and face reality. Get over it and get on with things. There’s nothing you can do to change the widely held prejudices of western society: guys who fall into a certain age group that make regular trips to Thailand/PI, like your typical Stickman readers, fall into a certain objectionable category. They’ll believe you’re a loser, a rapist, a male chauvinist, a sex criminal, and basically the Devil himself. Let them have their beliefs. And monger your way to eternity, dying with a smile on your face.
To monger or not to monger....To punt or not to punt? My conclusion: PUNT.
Stickman's thoughts:
I agree with most of the points you make strongly. But there are a couple of points where I disagree just as strongly!
It is my observation that women who work as prostitutes DO become damaged by spending time in the industry. I do not have data to prove it but there is no doubt in my mind, based on more than a decade of close observation of the industry, that many suffer massive mental damage. I also believe that many carry a multitude of sexually transmitted diseases - and some of these can cause long-term damage. Many get involved in kinky and extremely vigorous sex - which they have been coerced into. Yes, you can argue that you're doing them a favour by patronising them - and on one hand you're right - but I assure you that women who have been in the industry for a period change, and I believe that in most cases that change is very much for the worse. I also think there comes a point - and this point is different for every woman - where it becomes very, very hard to shake off the effects of their time in the industry. While it's quaint to say that punters should not treat these girls like a piece of meat, the sex tourist reports over the many naughty boy forums show that many girls are treated like sex machines.
I also have to ask the obvious question. If it is not advisable for a guy aged under 30 to embroil himself in the pleasures of the flesh in Pattaya - and I do agree with that - what then about a woman entering the industry at 18?
The author encourages feedback and can be reached at cromagnon9669@yahoo.com.
The publisher of this website, NOT this article, can be contacted at: stickmanbangkok@gmail.com.
